Spoilers Where should Star Trek go next?

Discussion in 'Future of Trek' started by mattman8907, Feb 28, 2023.

  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Justification?

    Never seen them justified, save in their own eyes. A show about the organization doesn't gives it credence.
     
  2. MikHutch

    MikHutch Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Maybe justification is the wrong word but it seems to veer too far into ends justify means imo
     
  3. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Of course it does. That is the modus operandi of the organization. That is their approach to things is that extremist take on "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." So, to quote Janeway, "You can use logic to justify anything."

    There is nothing in the show thus far that legitimizes what Section 31 does.. They operate on the fringes, people don't know about them, or limited information yet they believe that they are doing the right thing. It's a Star Trek version of Daredevil or Batman; the legal system failed so he must become a vigilante. That doesn't make it right, or positive, or something to be celebrated. It does make it something to explore in drama.
     
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  4. MikHutch

    MikHutch Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sure, but when is it a failure of the system and when is it just people abusing their power?
     
  5. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Probably a combination of both. Section 31 exists because it doesn't trust the externalize processes of negotiation, diplomacy, believing that they must do this. Vigilantes exist because they don't trust or believe in the system. The reasonable approach would be work to change the system. The dramatic idea is to explore it with things like Batman, Section 31, Seven Samurai, etc. It's a storytelling archetype for a reason; it appeals in some dramatic way to us.

    Now, because I like Daredevil or Batman does that mean I go out and engage in the same actions? If the answer is no, then I fail to see the harm in a show about Section 31 exploring inside a space that Trek hints at, and explores occasionally, but not with much real depth. But, Georgiou is set up in a unique way to explore this darker facet of humanity, closer a bit to TOS but not exact.

    In TOS, the Mirror universe humans are interestingly described at the end of the episode: SPOCK: Indeed, gentlemen. May I point out that I had an opportunity to observe your counterparts here quite closely. They were brutal, savage, unprincipled, uncivilised, treacherous, In every way, splendid examples of homo sapiens, the very flower of humanity. I found them quite refreshing.

    So you have this idea that Mirror Humans are not so different than Prime humans, but we see the relationships and how they are forged in cooperation rather than competition. Now, you have a human who has come to the Prime universe in some shape, built on cooperation, and a opportunity to learn and grow and evolve as a human while still dealing with the environmental forces that shaped her. And that's the drama I want to see because it isn't about justification but about drama, and how humans can actually try to become better despite challenges.
     
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  6. MikHutch

    MikHutch Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Much as I'm a fan of Batman and Daredevil, I think vigilante fiction rarely ever actually depicts how broken systems actually are
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Probably not.

    This is fantasy and drama for entertainment first, not a sociological essay.
     
  8. MikHutch

    MikHutch Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And?
     
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And there is no moral impetus to show the whole system, flaws and all. It just...is. So, if Batman and Daredevil are fine as entertainment, why not Section 31?
     
  10. MikHutch

    MikHutch Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Maybe not everyone is entertained the same way
     
  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Of course not, which is why variety is considered one of the many spices of life.

    That's why I don't mind things like Picard, or Legacy or other such projects that don't initially appeal to me coming down the Trek pipeline. Not all Trek can entertain me all the time. Eventually, something will happen that I don't like.

    Thankfully, for me, that happened when I first watched TNG and TMP and I learned that differences are OK. It was a weird time in my life though :)
     
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  12. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Humans that were being, quite ironically, honestly dishonest, transparently corrupt instead of covered over with a thin veneer of civility, morality, and decency. Spock finds that to be more authentic than prime Humans, who pretend to be without sin, or to try.