Where is the autism talk at?

[Autistoid]

Looking at this link, I don't really see any character that comes across as Autistic.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism

You do realize that's the group that is fixated on curing autism the same way people once tried to homosexuality?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez936r2F35U

No really I'm don't wanna preach about the politics but they released a song that was pretty much blatant hate speech.

There great plan to cure us horribly diseased people was for prenatal testing to essentially genocide us out of existence.

I really wish I was exaggerating but this video explains it quite well.

This girl explains it well how stereotypical we are not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ95xlZeHo8

Keep in mind these girls are likely a good bit younger than they sound. Women on the spectrum are largely very different from men on the spectrum.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The criteria for autism have become so broad they often get used to turn the personality of perfectly functional people into a disease. This then gets used as a justification for separating out and medicating anyone who has trouble fitting in socially when all some of them really need is social feedback training to understand a little better exactly how their actions are perceived.

The only time autism should really be treated like a 'Syndrome' is when the symptoms prevent a person from functioning independently.

 

[Autistoid]

The criteria for autism have become so broad they often get used to turn the personality of perfectly functional people into a disease. This then gets used as a justification for separating out and medicating anyone who has trouble fitting in socially when all some of them really need is social feedback training to understand a little better exactly how their actions are perceived.

The only time autism should really be treated like a 'Syndrome' is when the symptoms prevent a person from functioning independently.

Actually it's not really that broad.

There's this myth that there is an explosion in the numbers.

If you go by Hans Aspergers findings in 1944 as a basis things have not really changed much in 70 years.

If you watch the video's I've posted it's a very easy to understand concept.

The denial of autism is a rather large political issue, that can largely be compared to denial of homosexuality.

There's no explosion in gayness, it's simply that people are less afraid of accepting something.

Wanting to limit it to a "syndrome" is much like calling homosexuality a disease.

Getting back on topic it's not simply a neurological issue it's largely cultural.

Autistic peoples have a large influence on certain aspects of culture, namely things like star trek.

Spock is most certainty based on a person that has Aspergers and the current movies only enhance this realm of thought. To the point that nuSpock is played directly autistic.

 

[sojourner]

Yes but worf has shown disregard for social norms time and time again. He's not motivated by a desire to fit in with normal human. He's motivated by a desire that by mimicing another group of people he some day will be accepted.

He's not a normal human. He's a Klingon raised by humans. So of course he is going to have societal issues. It doesn't make him autistic.

 

[BillJ]

Looking at this link, I don't really see any character that comes across as Autistic.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism

You do realize that's the group that is fixated on curing autism the same way people once tried to homosexuality?

Fine...

What is autism?

Autism is a brain disorder that often makes it hard to communicate with and relate to others. With autism, the different areas of the brain fail to work together.

Most people with autism will always have some trouble relating to others. But early diagnosis and treatment have helped more and more people who have autism to reach their full potential.

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/

 

[Autistoid]

Yes but worf has shown disregard for social norms time and time again. He's not motivated by a desire to fit in with normal human. He's motivated by a desire that by mimicing another group of people he some day will be accepted.

He's not a normal human. He's a Klingon raised by humans. So of course he is going to have societal issues. It doesn't make him autistic.

Well I have no denial that its his attributed back story but it's star trek. The whole point of having aliens is to speak on topics that are otherwise not done when dealing with actual people.

Worf was made to be the outsider, he's not an outsider because of his race, as it's shown he's equally uncomfortable with his own kind. Furthermore most aliens in trek seem to be far more socially capable than he, with the exception of vulcans. Being an alien doesn't make one an outsider it's other issues.

Worfs obsession with honour(in reality it supersedes his desire to be klingon) defines him as much as his inability to socialize and more distinctly empathise with the point of people of other people.

 

[BillJ]

Well I have no denial that its his attributed back story but it's star trek. The whole point of having aliens is to speak on topics that are otherwise not done when dealing with actual people.

We all see things through our own personal lens. It's great that you see these things in these characters. But I doubt it was ever Roddenberry's intent for Picard or Worf (or any of the characters) to be autistic. Honestly, I just don't see any autistic traits in these characters.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

You just interpreted that post through the most intentionally hostile lens possible. You might as well have made a Hitler comparison, you basically said everybody who disagrees with you is a genocidal homophobe.

Try being a little tolerant of different viewpoints.

If you try reading my post without filtering it through your personal political lens, I was not saying we should deny the existence of autism. It's a fact that schools love pinning diagnoses on problem kids so they don't count toward their test scores and they don't have to provide them a real education. I know kids whose teachers literally gave them the answers to the standardized tests just because teaching them is a little harder than for other students.

It gives institutions an excuse to label people as a group instead of treating them as individuals as individual needs and gives the other kids an excuse to socially exclude them.

There are also people on the extreme end of the autism spectrum who have trouble even learning language or understanding that rules apply to them, and I frankly think it's a little callous to say that they should be made to live with these difficulties if there was a way to remove them.

Not every character who shows social anxiety or a preference for things to be logical has autism. By that definition every INTJ is autistic.

 

[BillJ]

Worf was made to be the outsider, he's not an outsider because of his race, as it's shown he's equally uncomfortable with his own kind. Furthermore most aliens in trek seem to be far more socially capable than he, with the exception of vulcans. Being an alien doesn't make one an outsider it's other issues.

I just don't see these Worf socialization issues that you keep bringing up. Being a private individual doesn't make one autistic. Hell, I'm a very private person and I assure you I'm not autistic.

Worfs obsession with honour(in reality it supersedes his desire to be klingon) defines him as much as his inability to socialize and more distinctly empathise with the point of people of other people.

Much like Spock with Vulcans, Worf is trying to live up to the idealized version of Klingons. Like Spock, he learns that his people aren't all they're cracked up to be along the way.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Except that Worf wasn't created to be a way of addressing autism, at the beginning of TNG he was literally The Klingon On The Bridge, a symbol of old enemies now being friends (similar to the addition of Chekov to TOS). His backstory of being raised by humans was created to help explain why he's the only Klingon in Starfleet (until B'Elanna Torres on Voyager, anyway) and why there's all this tension and uneasiness between his cultural heritage and his duty to Starfleet.

If you see something more in it, and it adds to your appreciation of his character, that's awesome for you. But it's not what the writers had intended.

 

[TheSubCommander]

^Yes but Worf might just be socially awkward, and don't we all have a sense of what is right or wrong, honourable or dishonourable? We might not always do the right/honourable thing but most of us know what it is. As for working hard not to be a nerd, sometimes people will behave in a way in which to fit into soceity. And whilst being a nerd doesn't matter in the fictional world of ST. How many hide their likes because they are percieved to be unpopular for lack of a better term. I for example don't really care for Football, but as far as I am concerned I won't comment on people liking Football and all I ask in return is you don't comment on my likes or dislikes.

I just don't see how Worf is autistic. I'm also not sure where I see that he was socially awkward.

Worf could be considered socially awkward in Klingon culture for sure, and his fixation on honorable/not honorable could be considered by some people as OCD-like in Federation or human culture. From a narrative perspective, anyway.

 

[Autistoid]

You just interpreted that post through the most intentionally hostile lens possible. You might as well have made a Hitler comparison, you basically said everybody who disagrees with you is a genocidal homophobe.

I make that comparison because it seems one that people are most familiar with.

But be clear you have to appreciate the seriousness of the history of autistic denial.

Along with LGBT issues will be one of the great social lows of the late 20th century.

the 1 in 68 number is strongly support by almost all experts.

Meaning that there are approximately 100 million people around the world who are not getting recognition due to some nasty politics.

Try being a little tolerant of different viewpoints.

I apologize to some degree if I come across stronger than I actually intended.

However I don't deny I am making that connection.

If you try reading my post without filtering it through your personal political lens, I was not saying we should deny the existence of autism. It's a fact that schools love pinning diagnoses on problem kids so they don't count toward their test scores and they don't have to provide them a real education. I know kids whose teachers literally gave them the answers to the standardized tests just because teaching them is a little harder than for other students.

I'm well aware of this, however I have never seen this in practice.

I know well over a 100 people on the spectrum and I've almost never met anyone that has been misdiagnosed with autism.

Granted I've met many who have been diagnosed with depression and the like that have been loaded up with heavy pills.

 

[Autistoid]

Well I have no denial that its his attributed back story but it's star trek. The whole point of having aliens is to speak on topics that are otherwise not done when dealing with actual people.

We all see things through our own personal lens. It's great that you see these things in these characters. But I doubt it was ever Roddenberry's intent for Picard or Worf (or any of the characters) to be autistic. Honestly, I just don't see any autistic traits in these characters.

Depends with what you mean intent.

From everything we know, Spock was modelled after a person that he knew that apparently had some strong traits of autism.

I'm sure he didn't say " hey I need to make a character fit a condition that I don't know exists yet"

However the possibility that it he was based on a likely autistic person is extremely real.

Worf and Data are from different generations.

Data is clearly meant to keep some of the more logical and analytical characteristic of spock.

While Worf clearly took much of the Outsider motif. It's likely an accident that by trying to balance his "jock" like persona with a character that is more relatable to "the nerds" that he became so directly autistic.

 

[JWPlatt]

...all some of them really need is social feedback training to understand a little better exactly how their actions are perceived.

...and from the other end, an enlightened understanding of how to perceive different people differently rather than forcing conformity.

You missed that part.

For example, this would be one of those traits to better understand of those on the spectrum:

Try being a little tolerant of different viewpoints.

I apologize to some degree if I come across stronger than I actually intended.

It's not intentional. It's not meant to be confrontational. It's just communication.

 

[Nerys Myk]

From everything we know, Spock was modelled after a person that he knew that apparently had some strong traits of autism.

I'm sure he didn't say " hey I need to make a character fit a condition that I don't know exists yet"

However the possibility that it he was based on a likely autistic person is extremely real.

We do?

I've never heard of Spock being modeled on anyone specific. So I'd like to see a source.

 

[BillJ]

From everything we know, Spock was modelled after a person that he knew that apparently had some strong traits of autism.

I'm sure he didn't say " hey I need to make a character fit a condition that I don't know exists yet"

However the possibility that it he was based on a likely autistic person is extremely real.

We do?

I've never heard of Spock being modeled on anyone specific. So I'd like to see a source.

I wonder if this will get answered if I say Harvey over and over while clicking my heels together three times.

 

[Autistoid]

From everything we know, Spock was modelled after a person that he knew that apparently had some strong traits of autism.

I'm sure he didn't say " hey I need to make a character fit a condition that I don't know exists yet"

However the possibility that it he was based on a likely autistic person is extremely real.

We do?

I've never heard of Spock being modeled on anyone specific. So I'd like to see a source.

I'll see what I can do.

 

[BillJ]

From everything we know, Spock was modelled after a person that he knew that apparently had some strong traits of autism.

I'm sure he didn't say " hey I need to make a character fit a condition that I don't know exists yet"

However the possibility that it he was based on a likely autistic person is extremely real.

We do?

I've never heard of Spock being modeled on anyone specific. So I'd like to see a source.

I'll see what I can do.

Sure you're not misremembering the story of George Laforge?

http://www.askmen.com/entertainment/special_feature_150/162_special_feature.html

 

[Autistoid]

...all some of them really need is social feedback training to understand a little better exactly how their actions are perceived.

...and from the other end, an enlightened understanding of how to perceive different people differently rather than forcing conformity.

You missed that part.

For example, this would be one of those traits to better understand of those on the spectrum:

Try being a little tolerant of different viewpoints.

I apologize to some degree if I come across stronger than I actually intended.

It's not intentional. It's not meant to be confrontational. It's just communication.

Thanks appreciate the understanding.


But yes it's not simply social skills.

What people that don't understand autism is that it's not being awkward that makes you autistic.

It's mindblindness, or the inability to relate to other peoples reasoning. It's a neurological function not a social norm or intellectual reasoning.

 

[BillJ]

It's mindblindness, or the inability to relate to other peoples reasoning. It's a neurological function not a social norm or intellectual reasoning.

Swinging back around to Worf and Picard, I don't see that in those characters, at all.