Where did the show go wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by gakelly, May 4, 2019.

  1. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    Interesting. I know what you mean about the first few seasons... The shows were a little out there. I suggest you watch them again, perhaps after you go through the whole series once. Like any show, it takes some time to get used to the characters. I "don't mind" "Ex Post Facto", but "Jetrel" is on my list of 10 least faves for the whole series. I can't stand James Sloyan's voice, and I find the episode a big who cares?

    There's lots of thought provoking concepts in this season, but more will come later. These are my favorite episodes, with the starred ones being my best, and what I consider somewhat thought provoking:

    "Time and Again" form season 1
    "Eye of the Needle" from season 1 (although I hate that the Romulan died)
    "Threshold" from season 2 (a lot of people don't like this episode. I don't know why.)
    "Deadlock" from season 2
    *"Tuvix" from season 2
    "Future's End from season 2/3
    "Macrocosm" from season 3
    "Distant Origin" from season 3
    "Scorpion" from season 3/4
    *"Scientific Method" from season 4
    *"Living Witness" from season 4
    "Timeless" from season 5
    "Gravity" from season 5
    *"Latent Image" from season 5
    "Relativity" from Season 5
    "Equinox" from season 5/6
    *"Blink of an Eye" from season 6
    *"Memorial" from season 6
    "Critical Care" from season 7
    "Workforce" from season 7
    *"Friendship One" from season 7

    "Blink of a Eye" is great... not to give too much away but they wind up caught in orbit of a planet that's spinning wildly like a pulsar, and as it turns out there is a huge time differential between normal space and the surface of the planet. They're only caught in orbit for like a couple of days, but many centuries pass on the planet. My favorite scene is when they send the doctor down to the surface to do a little recon, there's a little trouble beaming him back, for seconds, but he's been "abandoned" on the planet for two YEARS. He's only been gone for seconds, but he's so happy to see everyone when they beam him back.

    I always try to get something out of each episode, and enjoy almost all of them. I think people ruin their own experiences when they think "this is how I think it should have been" instead of just enjoying what it is.

    P.S. Yes, the Kazon were just horrible. Fortunately, they were gone before too long. Even the Borg considered them an inferior species.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  2. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If the show used this "trope" say... 5 times over its entire run, is that too much? Can it even be called a trope? Or is it simply a plot device that is used in different ways occasionally on Star Trek? And if it were 5 times, that's less than 3 percent of all Voyager episodes.

    And it's not like the other series didn't have these kinds of episodes, or similar plot devices. I can only think of two major times that Voyager did this, and it was in Timeless and Year of Hell, both of which are highly praised, excellent episodes that stand on their own.

    I think this complaint becomes rather silly looking at it statistically. It's more farfetched than if one were to complain "Voyager was constantly having episodes focused on Harry Kim."
     
  3. BigDaveX

    BigDaveX Captain Captain

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    The season-long Year of Hell would have been very different to the two-parter we actually got. The time ship was something they added when Braga was ordered to condense it down into just two parts, so the Year of Hell they'd planned before that was probably more akin to what we saw in "Before and After" - just a year of Voyager having its butt kicked by aliens with funky chroniton-based weaponry. We can only guess what other plot developments would have taken place in that season, especially since they were still expecting to have Kes instead of Seven.

    It is? Because I could have sworn that McCoy's personal conflict with Spock was a fairly major element of The Original Series.

    The parts of Enterprise that most people hate are the first two seasons - which were basically just Voyager-style episodes except with the captain randomly behaving like a racist douche towards Vulcans. When Enterprise actually tried something different with the Xindi arc in the third season, that was when it started to work; sadly, it was too little too late.
     
  4. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't know what the point is here... Enjoy what's good about a show, or complain incessantly because a 20 year old show wasn't everything to everybody every time. I love every minute of these shows. I've watched every series countless times. What is the point of arguing about what they should have done differently, 20 to 30 years ago?

    I'm sorry you don't enjoy the shows.
     
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  5. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There was never any plan to make a season long year of hell. It was originally intended to be the season 3 finale/season premiere, a two-part episode.

    Also, McCoy and Spock mostly had friendly banter(Which is found in great abundance on Voyager), but in the very rare cases that they actually had conflict, like in the Tholian Web, it was forced and immature, and in McCoy's case, out of character.

    Enterprise may have gotten more exciting and action packed in season 3 and 4, but it also got increasingly dumbed down(and not "too little too late," Enterprise continued to bleed viewers through season 3 and 4). People are frequently seethingly angry at each other for no reason, including Vulcans, talking through gritted teeth. People act juvenile. It's just not realistic. Character conflict needs to be handled delicately on star tthat, or it damages the characters, such as Riker acting like a spoiled brat in Chain of Command.

    These are supposed to be experienced professionals working in a structured military work environment. We should expect lots of friendly banter but little to none aggressive shouting and arguing with each other. People don't generally act like that.
     
  6. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Really? Everything Borg explodes!!! How does that not translate into everything Borg being destroyed?
     
  7. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    People expecting Voyager to be BSG the trek edition were always going to be disappointed. They just happen to be more vocal in their discontent then those were were content or happy with the show.

    And the show didn’t “go wrong” it lasted a full seven seasons whereas enterprise was cancelled.

    Because that isn’t the implication made? If it was the show did a terrible job of getting it across. Destiny and my take was more the Borg got a broken leg and bloody nose. But were not defeated for all time or anything like that.

    In terms of the characters, I would disagree with the notion voyager’s characters are overly stereotypical or blank.
     
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  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Voyager cost 1.2 million an episode to make, they got a bump to 3.2 million after ds9 ended, since Berman couldn't not spend his budget.

    Enterprise cost 5 million per episode to make and the ratings were in the toilet from week 3 after the new car smell wore off.

    (The numbers are from memory, they may be off by a little.)

    Enterprise cost nearly 5 times as much to make as season one Voyager, yet got 1/5th of the of the ratings.

    All Berman had to have done to save Star Trek (after Voyager) was to have invented a different version of Enterprise that only cost 1.2 million an episode.

    A situation like this occurred in Silicon Valley. If they offer you money to expand, you shouldn't always take it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  9. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Everyone mistrusted Quark, he was engaged in a lot of criminal activity, whilst his misogynistic manner would also have rubbed people like Kira up the wrong way. The only time people were actually hostile to him was when he became a weapons dealer, which offended Starfleet sensibilities. Despite his nefarious manner, he did have a heart and often did the right things (granted, sometimes for profit), but when he was left destitute after the Ferengi Commerce Authority revoked his "business license" Sisko, Odo, Dax, Bashir and a huge number of the stations crew and residents supported him with furniture and supplies to get him back on his feet.

    Odo was gruff but lovable. His harsh exterior was due to his development at the hands of scientists and being a plaything for Cardassians, but he had a heart that he protected--as evident by the torch he carried for Kira. In a lot of ways, Odo is really a moody teenager, given he's still young for a Changeling, and as such lacks emotional intelligence to voice what he feels. As for him and Quark, one is a lawman the other is a criminal. They have some great back and forth, both with a great deal of unspoken respect for each other. When Odo leaves the station, he won't give Quark a "goodbye" but turns his back, but Quark wouldn't expect anything else and states "that man loves me, it was written all over his back".

    How would you be if your homeworld and species were under the tyrannical and oppressive rule of another race for decades? Your planet and people were ravaged and abused, forcing you to rebel and fight from the time you were barely a teenager and forced to do horrible things that will haunt you for years? Only to get your freedom and have your "leaders" invite another big powerful organisation to "help"--which the Cardassians said they were there to do when they first arrived. Kira's arc over the series sees her grow from the angry terrorist to a seasoned leader, she learns from Sisko, Dax and the others around her to become a better person.

    They were in an isolated region of the quadrant, where their culture was driven by their caste system and heavily influenced by their religion. Before the Cardassians arrived they were a peaceful people, who were unprepared for the savageness that the Cardassians brought. You might want to go and ask the population of the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, Denmark, France, etc. why they didn't do anything to stop themselves being occupied in the 1930s and why they didn't defend themselves.

    Bashir was a character I didn't like in the beginning, but he does seem like the kind of upstart, smug, pretentious, overly-entitled person that you're not meant to like much in the beginning, but as you get to know him you see his strengths. His friendship with O'Brien is one of the most honest and endearing of the franchise, which was built on over time not just immediately "hey, we're senior officers on the same ship, let's be besties".

    Wouldn't you? He is someone who doesn't let anyone know that much about him in the beginning, though takes a shine to Bashir and develops a good back and forth with him. As the series progresses then all the other characters have their time with him, and he becomes an integral part of the community whose dark and shady past plays vital roles during the Dominion War--if not for him the Federation and Klingons would've lost without the Romulans getting involved.

    As is Ferengi culture. They are his employees, so he can use them as he wants in order to advance his own profits. But he does truly love them, often through his actions more than anything else (such as how he tends to and defends Nog on AR-558) but also says as much when Rom is made Grand Nagus.

    O'Brien is the "everyman", which is why #ObrienMustSuffer.

    Vic wasn't a highlight. He had moments when he was a good addition (such as helping Nog with his recovery) but more often than not he was a grating addition--but then again all holograms become tedious.

    Worf was looking out for Dax, not believing that Bashir was a suitable match for her (also coming off as more than a little jealous of her choice). Bashir and O'Brien were "playing" with a model set of the Alamo, and seeing as how many adults these days collect or make models then it's hardly such a childish thing.
     
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  10. Farscape One

    Farscape One Commodore Commodore

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    If I could like that post 100 times, I would. Well spoken and I agree.
     
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  11. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    I appreciate your giant response, but I watched the show through and through many times. There was no need to make excuses for each point I made. I didn't like Kira, I didn't like Odo, I didn't like the way the characters interacted with each other. Odo wasn't lovable. He unilaterally sentenced a planet full of people to non-existence for his own self interest. This was Odo. And, he showed contempt for the very people he was supposed to be allied with, from day one. If they didn't like Quark's dealings, they should have asked him to leave. Not treated him like dirt, just for being who he is. Did he do anything that would be considered improper for his species, for what we know of his species? No. So, one could say everyone was very intolerant of him for being Ferengi. I don't want to hear excuses for the Bajorans. They were pathetic and weak. People who are conquered are as much to blame for their plight as the conquerors. No brains and all hostility... and you know what? Mostly at themselves.

    You made excuses for everyone, but at the end of the day, they're all still terrible characters. Maybe the point was to make each of them flawed, but really, I just wanted episodic sci-fi.
     
  12. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I wouldn't call Odo lovable, but he's mostly likable. Quark is likeable, but does some pretty despicable things early on that put him outside of sympathy, like when he sold out the station during a storm and almost got Jadzia killed. He probably should have been sent packing after that.

    I liked Nog, Brunt, and even the Nagus and Moogie, but couldn't stand Rom. By season 5/6, Rom is a terrible sitcom character doing sitcom things.

    Kira, it seems like every season has "the occupation" stories, always exploring her past, always getting paired up with Dukat somehow, no matter how farfetched. She also gets pretty ruthless towards the end of the show. I liked some of her early episodes, like the one where she has to make that old farmer move off the moon. I didn't care for any of her romances, like Shakar and Boriel, and especially Odo. Kira got a ton of screentime, lots and lots of development, but she really doesn't change much. She's fiercely loyal to Sisko after the second or 3rd episode. She's a "faithful catholic" all through the series, a fighter, etc.
     
  13. Farscape One

    Farscape One Commodore Commodore

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    This is so completely wrong. The Cardassians had a superior military and technological advantage.
     
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  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Did the Cardassians invade using their military?

    I've always thought that it was a squeeze out.

    The Bajorans were swindled and paid off.

    Important Bajorans were offered "things" they assumed were valuable, that were probably not, to a Cardassian, in exchange for strip mining Bajor.

    Financial power turns into political power.
     
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  15. BigDaveX

    BigDaveX Captain Captain

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    Leaving aside the fact that you're doing the exact opposite of what you said up-thread - where you said that people shouldn't complain about Voyager not being what they wanted, and just accept it for what it is - DS9 did try to be more episodic early on. And the general opinion among viewers was that it didn't work, because it just came across as TNG on a space station instead of its own thing.
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Wigs.

    Kate, Jennifer and Roxanne in the beginng were all wearing awful wigs.

    Berman should have just let these beautiful women stay beautiful.
     
  17. BigDaveX

    BigDaveX Captain Captain

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    Wasn't it the other way around with Lien? She started out with her own hair, started wearing a wig midway through Season 3, and then grew her own hair out to the length of the wig just in time to be fired.
     
  18. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    Swear half the VOY board is discussions of where the show went wrong, so I'm going to throw this thought back out there.

    There's a British TV show called The Mighty Boosh that's known for its surreal humor but usually just has a pretty basic setting. I saw the two guys behind it on a talk show and they said a lot of bad comedy shows spend all their time thinking up crazy situations and characters, then fall flat when they actually have to come up with jokes.

    I've always felt that applies to Voyager. They came up with by far the most interesting ideas and arguably the most diverse set of characters, but they didn't seem to give much thought to how those elements would combine to create good stories. Feels like it was more 'hey, a Klingon engineer! That'd be cool. And a Vulcan security officer - people love Vulcans' and less 'okay, why should the security officer be a Vulcan? How is that going to lead to good stories?'
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  19. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Voyager has a racial diverse cast, but that doesn't bring much to the characters, if they're not well written or acted then they're just a token that ticks a diversity box--it's part of the reason why such human-heavy crews bother me, as the humans are often the dullest characters.
     
  20. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    What version of Star Trek HAD interesting characters? This is the point that I made in another post about why DS9 needed Worf, and VOY needed Seven.

    Was Mr. Sulu or Chekhov, or Uhura or even Kirk particularly interesting on TOS? Each of these characters is going to be somebody's favorite, but objectively, no they weren't very interesting characters on a week to week basis. Mr. Spock was the most interesting character, and the other characters became more interesting because of him.

    And you can say this for each of the series. TNG had Data, and eventually DS9 had Worf and VOY had Seven. The suffered in their earlier seasons without them.

    But I'll leave you with an interesting thought:

    It's easy to write for Spock, a conflicted half Vulcan half Human alien, or Data, an sentient android struggling to regain his past while trying to be more human, or Worf, a member of an rich alien culture living among humans, or Seven, a former Borg struggling to regain her individuality or even the Doctor, a hologram that becme somewhat sentient. But it is far harder to keep the Sulus and the Chakotays and the Kiras and the Paris' and the Harry Kims interesting week after week. Hard, but not impossible.

    So, did the writers just take the easy way out, concentrating on the easy-to-write for characters, instead of putting the effort into the others? I've watched plenty of dramas with interesting characters that have no aliens. So maybe. Maybe the humans are "dull" because it's just easier to write for Seven and the Doctor.