When the Doctor got zapped by the lake... Questions. (SPOILERS)

[DS9Continuing]

Rather than the Tesel-whatcha, I would have preferred to see the Doc use a Doppleganger. Mostly, because gangers were used, not once, but twice against the Doctor, and it would have been interesting for him to fool them they way they fooled him. I think the one reason this had to be ruled out, though, is that the Doctor-ganger that was created was a living, breathing, thinking, everything, duplicate person, so killing him would be something the Doctor would oppose. So, maybe not. Well, maybe if the Doctor-ganger could be kept solely a meat-puppet, and not indepentently alive.

Out of the three options for body doubles that were provided to us in the season - Teselecta, Ganger, time-stream double - I think the Teselecta is really the only one that could have worked. Amy's time-stream double could only exist within the Two Streams facility, and even the Tardis couldn't support the paradox of them both existing together, so that's out. Once a Ganger is killed, it just dissolves into liquid, and certainly doesn't regenerate, which would have given the game away immediately. And the Doctor would have had to be elsewhere to run it, whereas the "fixed point" stated that the Doctor had to be on that beach at that time.

No, the Teselecta is the only way for the Doctor to both be present and be protected at the same time. I just have to hope he Tardis'd out of there before they set the body on fire.

My problem with it is more that, in "Hitler," the Teselecta moved stiffly and made obvious robot noises. Whereas in "Astronaut," The T-Doctor moves smoothly and naturally. That's necessary to pull the wool over our eyes, of course, but it's a definite fudge to make it work.

But, how would the answer cause the Silence to fall? Perhaps that will be the angle on the season, how the answer to "Doctor Who?" will cause the Silence to fall.

I'm sure that's exactly the plan. At least I hope.

The concept as I understand it is that the Doctor knows some massive cosmic secret, something that's associated with his real name. Moffat has been playing with that at least as far back as "Fireplace." And that the Silence believe that he will reveal that secret - that he will be unable not to - at some point in his relative future. And that the reveal will have catastrophic consequences. And therefore they want to kill him now to stop that from happening.

.

 

[TeknoNurd]

Regarding the 200 years. Anytime, the Doctor dematerializes with no one inside the TARDIS with him, any amount of time of time could have passed, and we just weren't shown those Adventures.

Eccelston, when he first takes Rose travelling with him, he dematerializes without Rose for only a few seconds, and comes back and asks her, are you sure you don't want to come along <paraphrased>. He may actually have come back instantly, as it looked like he did from Rose's perspective, but, for all we know, he may have been off travelling for 50 or 100 years, and returned to almost the exact time he left Rose.

We did see Amy and Rory watching Old classic Movies with the Doctor popping up in scenes, and we saw him posing for the painting, so we know he was indeed doing alot of galavanting when not with Amy and Rory, there could easily 1000 adventures he went on in those 200 years, and we saw only a couple of them.

I understand the DW concept. Yes, he could have been doing all sorts of things in those 200 years, if there were 200 years to be filled, and he wasn't lieing. Basically, I am exploring the idea that he didn't take a 200 year "farewell tour", but took whatever time it took to arrange stuff, having fun along the way, certainly.

After all, in "When a good man goes to war" the Doc certainly took a fair amount of time calling on a lot of characters who were friends and/or owed him favors in a lot of different places, times, etc. I suppose this could have eaten a good chunk of that time. Again, with the DW concept, it could have been any number of years to put together, and we only saw a few short pieces of detail of that. Rory and Amy didn't age (noticably), but it's possible they waited for 5 minutes while the Doc bounced for years and years putting it together. While all of this time expended is DW plausible, to me it's not particularly practicle. To *me* it wouldn't have been that long a period, as he was anxious to get Amy back, and I don't think he would have dallied.

Just with the following points, a Doctor Who lie seems at least as plausible, if not more so:
1. The urgency of the situation (First, getting Amy back, then Melody)
2. He became "too loud, too noticed" and bouncing about for 200 more years wasn't going to lessen that, just the opposite;
3. The Silence was really in his business, so to sort it out he needed to (appear to) die;
4. Comfort Amy/Rory/River, him dying 200 years out does not make the issue terribly pressing, they have time to puzzle it out;
5. He could have simply travelled forever, never going to that place on that date and time, so why 200ish years?
6. The timing: He got the envolopes from Craig ("the day before"); so he'd already been tooling around for 200 years; or having devised his plan, took 200 years to bring it together. Either way, I don't think he'd of dallied.

Really, though, this was more of an idle thought. Not important in the scheme of things. If next season they establish he bumped around for 200 years, it won't change my life a bit. If, however, they establish he lied, then I'll be able to quote this post, and brag to my spousal unit that I was right!... and it won't change my life a bit.

He didn't decide to wait 200 years. It's the fact that he WAS 200 years older when he died. He couldn't change that. It kept saying it was a "fixed point." So he was always going to die at that place, at the time, and in that place in his time stream.

If anything, most of your points reflect the writing choice may not have been very good. It was a good hook at the beginning of the series, but, didn't resolve very well.

It appeared to me that the ONLY indication he was 200 years older is that he volunteered the information on the beach. Was there another indication somewhere?

And, yes, the fixed point time, place... But the point in his time stream was fixed? Perhaps that's one of those Whovian things that a passing fan like me wouldn't know about "fixed points"... but this fixed point seemed somewhat flexible... "The Doctor" didn't die. If he makes any sort of appearence next episode, the jig is up. And, since he'll hopefully be answering a question that will cause the downfall of the Silence, it will be hard for him to go unnoticed.

Assuming there is no independant confirmation of his age (if there is, nevermind then), he jumped in a time machine to go to that specific place, date, time, so no matter when he jumped in the TARDIS, no matter what age, he could travel to that fixed point place, date, and time.

And a final yes, yes I realize there is a lot of subjective "whanna see" kind of stuff that we can insert what we want. I'm just sorta test driving the lie idea.

 

[TeknoNurd]

Rather than the Tesel-whatcha, I would have preferred to see the Doc use a Doppleganger. Mostly, because gangers were used, not once, but twice against the Doctor, and it would have been interesting for him to fool them they way they fooled him. I think the one reason this had to be ruled out, though, is that the Doctor-ganger that was created was a living, breathing, thinking, everything, duplicate person, so killing him would be something the Doctor would oppose. So, maybe not. Well, maybe if the Doctor-ganger could be kept solely a meat-puppet, and not indepentently alive.

Out of the three options for body doubles that were provided to us in the season - Teselecta, Ganger, time-stream double - I think the Teselecta is really the only one that could have worked. Amy's time-stream double could only exist within the Two Streams facility, and even the Tardis couldn't support the paradox of them both existing together, so that's out. Once a Ganger is killed, it just dissolves into liquid, and certainly doesn't regenerate, which would have given the game away immediately. And the Doctor would have had to be elsewhere to run it, whereas the "fixed point" stated that the Doctor had to be on that beach at that time.

No, the Teselecta is the only way for the Doctor to both be present and be protected at the same time. I just have to hope he Tardis'd out of there before they set the body on fire.

My problem with it is more that, in "Hitler," the Teselecta moved stiffly and made obvious robot noises. Whereas in "Astronaut," The T-Doctor moves smoothly and naturally. That's necessary to pull the wool over our eyes, of course, but it's a definite fudge to make it work.

I agree with all that you say. I forgot the gangers gooped when they die. Gosh, those two gangers that replaced the originals are gonna surprise an EMT or two. I suspect once they resolved on their own, they stayed in form after death? But then they are not under external control. So, yeah, gangers out.

The Teselecta seemed to only move mechanically when it was getting up after being knocked down. In the courtyard, it even got up rather smoothly, if mechanically (motions a normal body wouldn't take), so I'm not sure that is a legit nit.

But, how would the answer cause the Silence to fall? Perhaps that will be the angle on the season, how the answer to "Doctor Who?" will cause the Silence to fall.

I'm sure that's exactly the plan. At least I hope.

The concept as I understand it is that the Doctor knows some massive cosmic secret, something that's associated with his real name. Moffat has been playing with that at least as far back as "Fireplace." And that the Silence believe that he will reveal that secret - that he will be unable not to - at some point in his relative future. And that the reveal will have catastrophic consequences. And therefore they want to kill him now to stop that from happening.

.

Yeah, I guess I want to see the season now. But, if it is something about The Doctor's name, then that would imply some old and intimate connection between the Doctor and the Silence, if his ultra secret name is the key to their demise. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Doctor created the Silence order to look after Humans?

Can't wait.

 

[Starkers]

Well any future sightings of the Doctor might well, from the Silence's perspective, be the Doctor pre-Lake Silencio/getting shot...he is a time traveller after all

 

[TeknoNurd]

Well any future sightings of the Doctor might well, from the Silence's perspective, be the Doctor pre-Lake Silencio/getting shot...he is a time traveller after all

Until he regenerates he has plausible deniability, as long as he doesn't volunteer his age

 

[EnderAKH]

It appeared to me that the ONLY indication he was 200 years older is that he volunteered the information on the beach. Was there another indication somewhere?

All the adventures he and River had when they compared diaries at the diner (ie Jim the Fish) that the 200 years younger doctor hadn't had yet.

 

[Starkers]

Well any future sightings of the Doctor might well, from the Silence's perspective, be the Doctor pre-Lake Silencio/getting shot...he is a time traveller after all

Until he regenerates he has plausible deniability, as long as he doesn't volunteer his age

Possibly even if he does regenerate. I mean River knows all his old faces and what order they go in but from the Zogians and Zog's perspective Smith might be the 1st Doctor, Tennant the 7th and Davison the 9th...

 

[TeknoNurd]

It appeared to me that the ONLY indication he was 200 years older is that he volunteered the information on the beach. Was there another indication somewhere?

All the adventures he and River had when they compared diaries at the diner (ie Jim the Fish) that the 200 years younger doctor hadn't had yet.

So... No other referencence to his age or the passage of 200 years. Great.

All the adventures that he and River had may or may not have taken 200 years.

Since River is now basically human (she gave all her regenerations to The Docter in "Let's kill Hitler"), wouldn't she be aging more or less normally? We saw her oldest version at the Library, and we saw her beginning this regeneration in "Let's kill Hitler". She hasn't aged noticably, not 200 years. So, it's fair to assume she didn't take up the whole, or even a significant portion of The Doctor's 200 years.

Even *IF* River is immortal (never aging), that still doesn't require their joint adventures to be 200 years. They are as long as they were, perhaps 1 perhaps 1,000.

We know the Doctor lies. Based on On Screen Canon, it seems valid to believe he did lie about the 200 years, just as it's valid to believe he spent 200 years dallying with River.

 

[TeknoNurd]

Well any future sightings of the Doctor might well, from the Silence's perspective, be the Doctor pre-Lake Silencio/getting shot...he is a time traveller after all

Until he regenerates he has plausible deniability, as long as he doesn't volunteer his age

Possibly even if he does regenerate. I mean River knows all his old faces and what order they go in but from the Zogians and Zog's perspective Smith might be the 1st Doctor, Tennant the 7th and Davison the 9th...

Well, yeah. Which means lying about a 200 year gap would give him additional room for "Plausible" appearances.

The Tesselecta's seemed to have quite the file on River and the Doctor, are likewise time travelers. It would be pretty safe that basic Doctor regeneration order would be in their files, but maybe not.

Ultimately, though, no one outside the Doctor has any sense of his continuum, his sequence of experience. Time Travel makes any discussion like this quickly dissintegrate. We should stop pulling these threads before the whole thing unravels.

 

[Iamnotspock]

But, how would the answer cause the Silence to fall? Perhaps that will be the angle on the season, how the answer to "Doctor Who?" will cause the Silence to fall. I imagine it would have to be quite a convoluted set of circumstances. I also don't see them actaully answering "Doctor WHO?" for isn't that, really, the ultimate question of the series? Perhaps answering "Doctor WHO?" causes the Silence to fall by ending the entire franchise?

Perhaps the question is "Doctor. Who?" in response to a statement such as "I know who can destroy the Silence!" but that would not be terribly satisfying.

But, that's probably why I don't get the big bucks for writing Science Fiction.

We don't know. That's the mystery that's been at the heart of the show since 1963! Who exactly is the Doctor? Why doesn't he tell even his closest friends his name? What significance does that name have? They seem to be trying to set up something Rumplestiltskin-esque about it; it's a restatement of the show's original premise, which seems to be building towards the 50th anniversary - Saturday, November 23rd 2013. Remember the Carrionites from The Shakespeare Code, and the way they used words? Or the way Old High Gallifreyan was said to once be able to topple empires and destroy gods? It would seem that there's something immensely powerful about the Doctor's name, and on the fields of Trenzalore - where "no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer" - at "the fall of the eleventh", the question - "Doctor who?" - will be asked. Dorium Maldovar's translation of "Silence must fall when the question is asked" seems to re-state the show's mission statement; no-one must ever know who the Doctor is...

 

[Starkers]

It appeared to me that the ONLY indication he was 200 years older is that he volunteered the information on the beach. Was there another indication somewhere?

All the adventures he and River had when they compared diaries at the diner (ie Jim the Fish) that the 200 years younger doctor hadn't had yet.

So... No other referencence to his age or the passage of 200 years. Great.

All the adventures that he and River had may or may not have taken 200 years.

Since River is now basically human (she gave all her regenerations to The Docter in "Let's kill Hitler"), wouldn't she be aging more or less normally? We saw her oldest version at the Library, and we saw her beginning this regeneration in "Let's kill Hitler". She hasn't aged noticably, not 200 years. So, it's fair to assume she didn't take up the whole, or even a significant portion of The Doctor's 200 years.

Even *IF* River is immortal (never aging), that still doesn't require their joint adventures to be 200 years. They are as long as they were, perhaps 1 perhaps 1,000.

We know the Doctor lies. Based on On Screen Canon, it seems valid to believe he did lie about the 200 years, just as it's valid to believe he spent 200 years dallying with River.

She only gave up her regenerations, given her comments about making herself seem a bit younger as she aged to freak people out in LKH it'd seem she's still effectively a Time Lord (sort of) and probably ages the same way (ie very slowly) it just means that when she eventually died she wouldn't regenerate.

 

[TeknoNurd]

But, how would the answer cause the Silence to fall? Perhaps that will be the angle on the season, how the answer to "Doctor Who?" will cause the Silence to fall. I imagine it would have to be quite a convoluted set of circumstances. I also don't see them actaully answering "Doctor WHO?" for isn't that, really, the ultimate question of the series? Perhaps answering "Doctor WHO?" causes the Silence to fall by ending the entire franchise?

Perhaps the question is "Doctor. Who?" in response to a statement such as "I know who can destroy the Silence!" but that would not be terribly satisfying.

But, that's probably why I don't get the big bucks for writing Science Fiction.

We don't know. That's the mystery that's been at the heart of the show since 1963! Who exactly is the Doctor? Why doesn't he tell even his closest friends his name? What significance does that name have? They seem to be trying to set up something Rumplestiltskin-esque about it; it's a restatement of the show's original premise, which seems to be building towards the 50th anniversary - Saturday, November 23rd 2013. Remember the Carrionites from The Shakespeare Code, and the way they used words? Or the way Old High Gallifreyan was said to once be able to topple empires and destroy gods? It would seem that there's something immensely powerful about the Doctor's name, and on the fields of Trenzalore - where "no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer" - at "the fall of the eleventh", the question - "Doctor who?" - will be asked. Dorium Maldovar's translation of "Silence must fall when the question is asked" seems to re-state the show's mission statement; no-one must ever know who the Doctor is...

I very much a modern Who enthusiast, so I don't know a lot of the history. Oh, I watched it on PBS when I happened by, but couldn't make head nor tails of it based on the infrequent episodes I saw. So, thanks for the insight. I didn't know High Gallafreyan had such power, so "Doctor Who?" could be dramatic.

If Doctor Who's name will make the Silence fall, it seems that he and the Silence are connected in some way.

 

[Iamnotspock]

I very much a modern Who enthusiast, so I don't know a lot of the history. Oh, I watched it on PBS when I happened by, but couldn't make head nor tails of it based on the infrequent episodes I saw. So, thanks for the insight.

This article on the Doctor's name is quite interesting.

I didn't know High Gallafreyan had such power, so "Doctor Who?" could be dramatic.

From The Time of Angels;

DOCTOR:
The writing, the graffiti - Old High Gallifreyan. The lost language of the Time Lords... There were days, there were many days, these words could burn stars and raise up empires, and topple Gods.

AMY:
What does it say?

DOCTOR:
Hello, sweetie.

If Doctor Who's name will make the Silence fall, it seems that he and the Silence are connected in some way.

Quite possibly... It'll be interesting to see where it goes since, as you say, the Doctor's name is the ultimate mystery of the series and can't possibly be revealed. If the posing of The Question is where Moffat is going, then he'll have to surprise us in some way without revealing the answer in order to avoid it being a massive anti-climax.