When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

[Timewalker]

Last, I’d just like to say I’ve read and enjoyed Greg Cox’s books about Khan. So Foxhot, if you want to stick close to stuff that’s been in the official books and the established continuity, I’d follow what he says, and ignore my idle speculations. Cannon? Wasn’t he that um… burly detective?

Timon

Cannon was a detective. Canon is what some Trek fans consider important and others don't. Canon is what we're discussing here.

This allows Khan to remember Chekov without him having to hide somewhere on the ship for the first year of the show.

...But you seem to be counting by stardate, which means Chekov is already a bridge officer by the time of "Space Seed", having made his debut earlier on in "Catspaw".

Well, at least it completely and totally avoids the whole "people with yellow hair and pale skins are somehow superior" nonsense.

But just because it's nonsense is no reason to avoid it - indeed, it being nonsense is why it's so darn popular in entertainment. "Nazi" isn't pronounced "nutsy" for nothing.

That is, if somebody on Ceti Alpha V decided that people with white hair and pale skin (say, Khan, which his already white hair and non-negroid complexion) were superior, he'd certainly act on it! Now that the desperate flight with some eighty competitors was over, and compromises could be forgotten, the elimination game between the supermen could finally begin. In the end, there can be only one (phenotype)...

As for the nuances of dialogue, fitting your model in isn't all that impossible in the end. Khan does say Kirk marooned him and the others "on the barren sand heap" (contradicted by facts of marooning in "Space Seed"), and "never bothered to check on their progress" (made doubtful by the 15 years reference if taken literally). Might well be Kirk marooned Khan twice, then: first on the harsh but fertile Ceti Alpha V, then again on the barren sand heap Ceti Alpha V (by visiting, seeing that things were bad, and nevertheless leaving). And then he failed to check on how they were doing.

Kirk would probably have done all that on his own time, though, without bringing his starship along. The place isn't all that far out in the sticks, and Kirk has access to various private or commercial starcraft when the UFP doesn't declare an inconvenient quarantine to hinder him. Or then he can operate small Starfleet craft of sufficient range, like the various TAS designs, and file a false flight plan.

Timo Saloniemi

1. The notion that there were any issues with "superior phenotypes" among Khan's people is nonsense. Khan valued intelligence, strength, and endurance. He didn't care what color skin or hair came along with that package. If he was a bigot in terms of physical appearance, how could he be such close friends with both Joaquin (from Space Seed) AND Joachim from the movie (they were NOT the same individuals!)?

2. "Nazi" is NOT pronounced "nutsy"... at least in any dialect of English I've ever heard.


I don't believe Kirk would have checked on them and just buggered off again. That isn't in Kirk's character, either as a person or, more importantly, as a Starfleet officer.

 

[jimcat]

Hello everyone,

Timo, I'm glad you couldn't spot any immediate impossibilities in my idea, since that's sort of an acid test, as far as I'm concerned. As to the stardates, I'm afraid my version of “Star Trek” tries to have its cake and eat it, so to speak. The stardates are used to place events, except when they aren't. Although there's no real implicit or “correct” order for the stories in the original series, I thought that not overlapping or intermingling the seasons and animated stories would be a good idea. In the particular case of “Catspaw”, it was intended as a halloween story, originally broadcast on 27th October 1967. Since I personally think there's a point where you have to stop being too serious, I placed “Catspaw” on 31st October, 2266, well after my stardate-placed “Space Seed”, and in keeping with the intent of the production team. Foxhot did originally ask if anyone had tried to work out dates and stardates, and I make absolutely no claims that anyone has to take my ideas seriously. I just hope they're amusing, and suggest something new in ground that's undoubtedly well-trodden.

As for the timing of Kirk's return visit, there are limits: The two bits of “Star Trek: Generations” happen 78 years apart, putting an upper limit of Kirk's presence in the 23rd century at 2293ish. Given that Sulu has been on a 3 year mission in “Star Trek VI”, then films II-V can't be any earlier than 2289, or 90 if you push everything to the limit. This is still a bit short for Admiral Morrow's “20 years” reference, since the refit Enterprise isn't launched until 2273, but the absolute latest the return trip to Ceti Alpha can be is 2275. I admit it's something that you can argue either way, since Kirk reverts to being a captain in “Star Trek: The Motion Picture”, but Khan is genuinely astonished that Kirk is an admiral. It's a suggestion that any return trip was prior to the first film, putting it in the last bit of the five-year mission or immediately after.

Ignoring Harry “the oldest ensign in Starfleet” Kim, Data's quick rundown of either his own career, or a “typical” Starfleet career in “Datalore” suggests that three years is normal at ensign grade. This is the only really good clue as to how long Chekov serves on the Enterprise at that grade, and it makes me think that he wasn't on the ship at all for the first season, or for the animated shows. This also fits in with the actual production history. Your interpretation of all these fictional facts is likely to be entirely different, and just as valid, but it led me to place the hypothetical return trip where I did.

I'm not sure how closely Khan = nazi, but given the wide ethnic variation of the original supermen, I'm not convinced that there would be the opportunity for “racial cleansing”, or that “superior beings” would put themselves into that kind of genetic bottleneck. I still think that the “next generation” of supermen seen in “Star Trek II” are people who went into suspended animation with Khan as teenagers, and are in their late 20s and their 30s when we see them. If they look younger, it's because they have good genes.

Timewalker, I have to guess that you don't like my sense of humour, which is your right. I don't like to discuss canon. It always seems to get nasty. Frank Cannon is something else entirely.

Your point about Kirk not returning is a reasonable one, but has to be placed against the huge social taboo against genetic manipulation in “Star Trek” humanity, as shown in the story of Julian Bashir. Not only is there a planet where “Star Trek”'s answer to Hitler is establishing a whole society with his closest followers, they're all filthy abnormal creatures as well. What draws Kirk back to Ceti Alpha V, and what happens when he gets there, can be as mundane or exciting as you please. It still doesn't answer the really big boo-boo in “Wrath of Khan”: if Chekov knows the supermen were exiled to Ceti Alpha V, why doesn't visiting the Ceti Alpha system jog his memory sooner? Unless he's almost certain they're all dead? Looked at from that direction, the whole story suddenly seems a lot bleaker than just not bothering to check back regularly.

On that cheery note, best wishes to all!

Timon

 

[Timewalker]

First of all, I did enjoy watching Cannon; I'm old enough to remember it when it was originally on.

Secondly, Kirk did all kinds of things that went against the social taboos of the 23rd century - because to him, they were the right thing to do.

Thirdly, it's obvious that for story purposes, Chekov had to "remember" Khan even though there is NO evidence that he was on the Enterprise at the exact time that the events of "Space Seed" took place. That said, it wasn't the planet's official name/designation that jogged his memory... it was the title of a book: Botany Bay. After he made the connection between the book, the old sleeper ship, and Khan, that's he told Terrell they had to get out of there NOW. Of course, it was too late by that time.

 

[DonIago]

Botany Bay wasn't the title of a book; it was written on a belt.

 

[Timewalker]

Sorry, it's been many years since I last saw TWOK. But my point stands in that it was "Botany Bay" that jogged Chekov's memory, not the planet's designation.

 

[Marsden]

Sorry, it's been many years since I last saw TWOK. But my point stands in that it was "Botany Bay" that jogged Chekov's memory, not the planet's designation.

I agree with this completely. Also, I don't know how the planets/systems are numbered, but Ceti Alpha sounds very generic to me, add to that the "one dynoscanner" barely showed any lifeforms, it probably never crossed his mind.

Finally, Kirk giving Khan exile was (probably) really against regulations and I don't think it would have been very publicised, Chekov, if he was there, may have experienced the whole thing but didn't know what planet they were left on, not being the navigator at the time.

Also, this is a stretch, but Khan had free access of the Enterprise Library, might that have included Starfleet personnel records? Could he have seen Checkov without him being there in person? Maybe Khan has a photographic memory, he certainly learned how to overload the engines.
I just don't see it as that big of a deal about Khan knowing Checkov because in the first episode produced with him, Catspaw, Checkov said "I'm no that green." As he was new but not that new, he may have been around a few months and we just never saw him on camera. They don't pull 24 hour shifts on the bridge, do they? There needs to be relief crew when the episodes aren't happening.

 

[jimcat]

Hello everyone,

Timewalker, thanks for taking the time to read and comment on my posts. The points you're raising are making me think a lot more about what was a pretty vague idea to wave away some problems I was having with the placement of “Space Seed” and “Wrath of Khan” in an overall timeline. Even though you're not convinced (and there's no reason you should be), it's much more interesting to argue a point, especially when some of my “evidence” in support of it can't bear inspection.

You're right, Chekov didn't really make the connection about Khan and the Ceti Alpha system until he saw the belt-buckle. It's still odd that he doesn't, but that's a long way from it being in any way impossible.

I'm not as convinced Kirk is that moral, especially on the evidence of “Wrath of Khan”. He has already abandoned Khan and his followers, and he's effectively turned his back on his own son, and that's without any of my suppositions. Having Kirk go back to Ceti Alpha obviously seems wrong and out of character to you, and your opinion is every bit as valid as mine (if not more so: you're not presupposing anything that's not specifically mentioned). It's so handy datewise if he does, though!

Best wishes,
Timon

 

[DonIago]

Greg Cox speculates that the exile of Khan's group was classified, and as Project Genesis was also classified, you ended up essentially with the right hand not knowing what the left hand had done. This seems reasonably plausible to me.

Chekov not recalling that Khan's group was there is more difficult to explain, but it's not as though I remember every place I might have visited in the past 15 years, and I've gotten around a lot less than Chekov did. Also, as pointed out above, Chekov wasn't navigator at the time.

As for Khan knowing Chekov, I never had a problem with it.

Given that Khan's group was marooned for years on a planet with, presumably, a different orbit than Earth's, the 15-18 year discrepancy never bothered me either.

 

[Timo]

Khan valued intelligence, strength, and endurance.

...All of which makes him a bigot already. Adding other characteristics like skin color, age or length to the pool doesn't really change his character an iota. It's not something we're required to do, but it's something we can do at our leisure if that's our wont.

If he was a bigot in terms of physical appearance, how could he be such close friends with both Joaquin (from Space Seed) AND Joachim from the movie (they were NOT the same individuals!)?

Joaquin he'd tolerate because that was the way to get out of Earth alive. Joachim he'd obviously let live because he was the fully Aryan son he always hoped to have...

Note that the concept that Khan would prefer tall blondes is not something that's required to make sense of ST2. It's just a simple and rather well-working explanation as to how the marooned community would gravitate towards phenotype uniformity. Had Joaquin prevailed and Khan perished, only the children bred with curly "Middle Eastern" hair would have survived...

Although in terms of Hollywood approximations, all of Khan's fellow escapees (especially including Joaquin) would qualify as Aryan, except perhaps for the head honcho himself (who'd only be Aryan in the actual sense of the word). "Ethnic diversity" isn't something easily visible in this bunch of generic extras, no matter what the dialogue says.

2. "Nazi" is NOT pronounced "nutsy"... at least in any dialect of English I've ever heard.

Well, it's pronounced "nutsy" in Nazi... That is, the only correct way to pronounce "nazional" in German is to start with "nuts", and "naetsy" let alone "naezzy" is just a perversion fitting of the enemies of the Reich.

Also, as pointed out above, Chekov wasn't navigator at the time.

Do we have any reason to think he would ever have held some other position aboard the ship in TOS?

In "Catspaw", the officer's first appearance in stardate order, nothing explicit is said about Chekov being new to the ship; nor is such a thing mentioned anywhere else, so he could well have been aboard for years upon years before enough of those early Lieutenants retired from Navigation to let Chekov sit a few Alpha shifts in there, rather than his usual midnight ones. (Data's "normal" career advancement is probably anything but, and the poor machine doesn't realize it is being held back.. Certainly the heroes around him climb the rank ladder faster.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marsden]

I just want to point out my mistake in my last post, I got to rewatch the movie Saturday and while it's the belt buckle with the name Botany Bay that makes Chekov remember, he does shout that "On Ceti Alpha 5 there was life!" at Khan, so he did know about the planet Khan was sent to. It must have been just bad memory, I'm sure he's been to a lot of planets.

I do wonder why only one scanner showed "something" ? Shouldn't have showed 50 some humanoids?

 

[DonIago]

Given the conditions of the planet I think it's entirely possible sensors and other sensitive systems weren't operating at peak efficiency.

 

[BillJ]

If I had money to bet, I'd say McGivers dies sometime between Space Seed and The Wrath of Khan. Beyond that we don't have enough information to narrow it down.

 

[Timewalker]

Khan valued intelligence, strength, and endurance.

...All of which makes him a bigot already. Adding other characteristics like skin color, age or length to the pool doesn't really change his character an iota. It's not something we're required to do, but it's something we can do at our leisure if that's our wont.

It doesn't make him a bigot if he values those qualities. It would make him a bigot if he discriminated against others due to the usual criteria we're all aware of, and I'm sure that when he was on Earth Khan was bigoted against the non-genetically engineered populace of Earth. He would have treated those he considered inferior just like any bigoted individual does.

But to simply value and respect those qualities, per se, does not make one a bigot.

If he was a bigot in terms of physical appearance, how could he be such close friends with both Joaquin (from Space Seed) AND Joachim from the movie (they were NOT the same individuals!)?

Joaquin he'd tolerate because that was the way to get out of Earth alive. Joachim he'd obviously let live because he was the fully Aryan son he always hoped to have...

Note that the concept that Khan would prefer tall blondes is not something that's required to make sense of ST2. It's just a simple and rather well-working explanation as to how the marooned community would gravitate towards phenotype uniformity. Had Joaquin prevailed and Khan perished, only the children bred with curly "Middle Eastern" hair would have survived...

This is BS. A group of people that small would need every individual's work output to stay alive, regardless of skin tone, hair color, eye color, etc. Any intelligent leader would know that.

Although in terms of Hollywood approximations, all of Khan's fellow escapees (especially including Joaquin) would qualify as Aryan, except perhaps for the head honcho himself (who'd only be Aryan in the actual sense of the word). "Ethnic diversity" isn't something easily visible in this bunch of generic extras, no matter what the dialogue says.

Granted. But Khan is not responsible for the decisions of Hollywood casting directors.

Also, as pointed out above, Chekov wasn't navigator at the time.

Do we have any reason to think he would ever have held some other position aboard the ship in TOS?

Certainly. Think back to various episodes where Spock isn't available to run the library-computer station. Who takes over for him? Chekov.

It was established early in the series that many junior officers serve in several areas of the ship before settling into their "specialty." Sulu wasn't always a helmsman. Riley worked in Engineering before being promoted to Navigator. Uhura and Rand both know how to take the Navigator's station in an emergency. Chekov was obviously in training as some sort of information specialist, in addition to his navigation skills.

In "Catspaw", the officer's first appearance in stardate order, nothing explicit is said about Chekov being new to the ship; nor is such a thing mentioned anywhere else, so he could well have been aboard for years upon years before enough of those early Lieutenants retired from Navigation to let Chekov sit a few Alpha shifts in there, rather than his usual midnight ones. (Data's "normal" career advancement is probably anything but, and the poor machine doesn't realize it is being held back.. Certainly the heroes around him climb the rank ladder faster.)

Timo Saloniemi

Nonsense. In Catspaw, DeSalle keeps needling Chekov as being inexperienced and unsure of what he's doing. Chekov finally gets mad and says, "I'm not that green."

DeSalle wouldn't have said what he did if Chekov had been aboard for years.

 

[Timo]

It doesn't make him a bigot if he values those qualities. It would make him a bigot if he discriminated against others

But obviously he does: he thinks people without those qualities (such as Kirk or McGivers) are dirt. How could that possibly not be bigotry?

This is BS. A group of people that small would need every individual's work output to stay alive, regardless of skin tone, hair color, eye color, etc. Any intelligent leader would know that.

Hardly. A group that small wouldn't need to be allowed to breed freely: selective breeding would be more than sufficient for the needs of the group, and the community would probably have to practice severe birth control anyway to avoid overtaxing the local resources. Perpetuation of the settlement would happen swiftly in any case, with 15-year-long generations of genetically healthy people filling all the required positions: any intelligent leader would start planning for the long term.

And the thing is, everybody on that colony would be an intelligent leader, originally. There'd be no followers. It would be in everybody's interest to subjugate everybody else. Preventing breeding is a soft way to subjugate; killing is a more workable alternative in the circumstances, though.

But Khan is not responsible for the decisions of Hollywood casting directors.

He's slave to them, though. And when Scotty says "They're mixed types - western, mid-European, Latin, oriental" yet all we see is generic "western" people, we are certainly entitled to jump to the conclusion that the "western" folks were the elite, and the Latin, mid-European, oriental etc. people we never saw were slaves Khan either did not bother waking up at all before he dumped the Botany Bay, or then sent on errands off camera and far away from the executive action he took.

DeSalle wouldn't have said what he did if Chekov had been aboard for years.

...Or if Chekov had been doing that "second Spock" stint on the bridge for years. So it does look as if he started out as Navigator (with a side job or two), in terms of starting his bridge career; whether he had a preceding career elsewhere, outside the bridge, remains to be established on screen.

Timo Saloniemi