When Does Babylon 5 not get boring?? lol...

[Reverend]

I think the saddest thing is that unlike with Franklin and his problem, the whole time Garibaldi knew what he was doing, why he was doing it and where it'd probably lead him. Whether it was purely an attempt at self destruction or a cry for help is debatable. Probably a little of both.

Exactly. I hated the way his falling off the wagon was handled in "Survivors" with a firey passion for exactly that reason.

Jan

..actually I have known reformed alchs to have one-off slips like that (while under duress) without totally coming to pieces. Depends on the person, depends on the situation, so I can let what happened in 'Survivors' slide...so long as it was just a one-off. Which it was.

Clark was crazy on his own. Anyway, as Edgars said, Clark wasn't the issue. It was Psi Corps that was the real problem; they used Clark to help them gain more control.

Exactly. I see Clark as (as far as the Shadows were concerned) a human equivalent of Londo or Refa. A convenient agent of chaos, nothing more. They only put keepers on people who need a tight leash. Even at Earthdome I think he was probably little more than a halfwit front man for Department Sigma and EF New Technologies.

This and the non-Shadow shadowy factions behind Clark's regime are gotten into more in the canon novels and would have probably factored more into Crusade had it lived.

 

[RandyS]

I think the saddest thing is that unlike with Franklin and his problem, the whole time Garibaldi knew what he was doing, why he was doing it and where it'd probably lead him. Whether it was purely an attempt at self destruction or a cry for help is debatable. Probably a little of both.

Exactly. I hated the way his falling off the wagon was handled in "Survivors" with a firey passion for exactly that reason.

Jan

..actually I have known reformed alchs to have one-off slips like that (while under duress) without totally coming to pieces. Depends on the person, depends on the situation, so I can let what happened in 'Survivors' slide...so long as it was just a one-off. Which it was.

Clark was crazy on his own. Anyway, as Edgars said, Clark wasn't the issue. It was Psi Corps that was the real problem; they used Clark to help them gain more control.

Exactly. I see Clark as (as far as the Shadows were concerned) a human equivalent of Londo or Refa. A convenient agent of chaos, nothing more. They only put keepers on people who need a tight leash. Even at Earthdome I think he was probably little more than a halfwit front man for Department Sigma and EF New Technologies.

See, THIS is why we needed to see more of Clark. In what little we did get, he was portrayed as an anti-alien bigot who siezed power on Earth, then proceeded to turn it into a police state, but we really didn't get a good enough look at him to find out WHY he did these things. That would have made a perfect LOST TALES story.

Too bad.

 

[Reverend]

I disagree. Having Clark on the show as a semi-regular "villain" would have drastically cheapened and over simplified the conflict. It was never about some mad dictator, it was about how a democracy can slide into Orwellian totalitarianism *with the consent of the masses.*

Even with him gone, the shadowy figures in Psi Corps and Earthforce that put him into power didn't go anywhere, as Crusade would have revealed.

 

[RandyS]

I disagree. Having Clark on the show as a semi-regular "villain" would have drastically cheapened and over simplified the conflict. It was never about some mad dictator, it was about how a democracy can slide into Orwellian totalitarianism *with the consent of the masses.*

But there was no "consent of the masses", he asassinated his way into office, and then, once there, proceeded to strip Earth of every freedom he could, as evidenced by the existence of the Night Watch.

And he didn't need to be a semi-regular villain. Just one more aperance where he was allowed to present his position would have been good enough.

 

[Harvey]

But there was no "consent of the masses", he asassinated his way into office, and then, once there, proceeded to strip Earth of every freedom he could, as evidenced by the existence of the Night Watch.

He was still voted in as vice president. Then, when he was president, Earthdome voted to adopt his draconian measures.

Still, he was pretty two-dimensional, and I wouldn't have minded seeing him fleshed out.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, Clarke never really clicked with me because he wasn't fleshed out much. We don't know his motivations, his reasons, just that he was a wannabe dictator.

The transformation of Earth didn't play into the show's plot much until S4 and even then it wasn't much of a deep plot. Just fight to Earth with raw power, bad guy conveniently kills himself, the government fixes itself, etc.

 

[stonester1]

I disagree. Having Clark on the show as a semi-regular "villain" would have drastically cheapened and over simplified the conflict. It was never about some mad dictator, it was about how a democracy can slide into Orwellian totalitarianism *with the consent of the masses.*

But there was no "consent of the masses", he asassinated his way into office, and then, once there, proceeded to strip Earth of every freedom he could, as evidenced by the existence of the Night Watch.

And he didn't need to be a semi-regular villain. Just one more aperance where he was allowed to present his position would have been good enough.

If you scare the shit out of people (and direct that fear at an external threat, real or imaginary, it doesn't matter), you can get away with a lot before someone goes, hey, wait...history is quite clear on that score.

 

[stj]

As for wanting Garibaldi to embody the case against Sheridan, there are two difficulties. First, every officer who didn't sign on to the civil war embodied that case. Second, the in depth character who acted on the conservative view of patriotism was Londo Mollari, who was consistently motivated by his patriotic desire to restore Centauri glory. Why ever rewrite Garibaldi when we already have the theme explored with Mollari?

As for Sheridan's supposed cult of personality, there too the issue was better explored already in the Vorlons. And the decision there was to reject the Vorlons. Why ever have a pale carbon copy of the theme in Garibaldi?

The supposedly convenient way that Clark committed suicide had nothing to do with the victory. He committed suicide because he had lost, with enemies pounding at the door. And the historical example of Hitler may have inspired the desire to destroy everything elese with himself.

The convenient part about Clark's suicide was that it allowed a happy forgive and forget policy for the reconstruction. I personally think Sheridan should have cleaned house. However people can think Sheridan took too much upon himself when he was prepared to chance execution rather than actually redeem Earth is a mystery to me.

 

[The Lensman]

I disagree. Having Clark on the show as a semi-regular "villain" would have drastically cheapened and over simplified the conflict. It was never about some mad dictator, it was about how a democracy can slide into Orwellian totalitarianism *with the consent of the masses.*

But there was no "consent of the masses", he asassinated his way into office, and then, once there, proceeded to strip Earth of every freedom he could, as evidenced by the existence of the Night Watch.

And he didn't need to be a semi-regular villain. Just one more aperance where he was allowed to present his position would have been good enough.

Regarding "consent of the masses", one need only look around us now to see how this works. You scare the population with a threat, in the case of modern America it's "terrorism" and then say "I will protect you." Or you say "Our traditional way of life is being eroded/subverted/destroyed by commies/liberals/illegals/foreigners....and I will stop that."

And it works. We've seen it work in history and it is in fact going on and succeeding here today. Just look at the Patriot Act and the recent passage of The National Defense Authorization Act.

A society that truly had freedom as it's highest value, would've been up in arms at the passage of these. Instead they were supported by the masses because it meant they'd be "safer". The slow erosion of freedom and rights.

And this is what you see happen on B5 throughout it's run. The erosion's start small and get larger, and the justification is that there are ideas and "enemies" that are subverting Earth's traditional way of life. And let's not forget the Martian "terrorists" who wanted independence.

No, Clark did not seize power and start issuing draconian edicts from day one like a cartoon villian. It was slow, and it was framed as protecting Earth. And plenty of Earthers supported it. See the Earther's who supported the bombing of Mars and joked about killing the marsies. This isn't the Star Trek universe, where these people would be an incredibly rare and isolated incidence of hatred among the Human population.

The Human population on B5 is far more diverse in beliefs and opinions. Plenty of them supported Clark's views.

In addition, some of Clark's agents during Season 1 believed that the Minbari were running some kind of long term plan against Earth with Sinclair as a lynchpin in that plan.

As for WHY do it? Ask yourself the same of our politicians today and when you figure out why they're doing it, you'll have your answer. It's probably not much different.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

I am reading my way through this excellent exchange of ideas as time permits. Just made it to page 8 but have to stop for today. I liked Sinclaire's reserved style and believe it was played that way intentionally. Season one has some slow patches but I'm old enough to enjoy moving at that pace. As you can see below, I loved "TKO" and place it in my personal top 10 while it languishes in the bottom of most fans lists. Go figure.

 

[MacLeod]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Hitler was elected and we know how that turned out.

 

[RandyS]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Hitler was elected and we know how that turned out.

True, but my point was that while he was elected Vice-President, he assassinated his way into the Presidency.

He seized power.

 

[JoeD80]

Psi Corps seized power.

 

[Anwar]

Thing is, we had little reason to care about Clarke's "reforms" and Earth itself because Earth Society was never much a part of the show aside from being the guys the B5 Staff sometimes dealt with.

If JMS had made Earth and its society more a part of the show the way Centauri society or Minbari society was, we'd care more. As it is, we never saw enough of Earth to get invested in it to care when Clarke did all his offscreen villainy.

And the Civil War didn't tug at any heartstrings because none of the B5 Staff fought any of their own friends on-screen, or good Earth Captains we as the audience had come to care about. They were all just jerk villains we were uncaring towards or happy to see dead.

 

[DonIago]

"No Surrender, No Retreat" specifically involves Sheridan attacking at least one captain he's familiar with. They clearly were -not- all jerk villiains. Neither was the leader of the EA forces in "Endgame", for that matter, whom Sheridan was also familiar with. Ditto for the captain of the Agamemnon.

 

[MacLeod]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Hitler was elected and we know how that turned out.

True, but my point was that while he was elected Vice-President, he assassinated his way into the Presidency.

He seized power.

No he wasn't.

My history might be a little rusty but Hitler ran to become President coming second. His party however had enough seats in the Reichstag to prevent the other main party from forming a Government after several attempts by them he was appointed Chancellor by Hindenberg. Hindenberg being Head of State whilst the position of Chancellor was more akin to Head of Government.

He then used the fire at the Riechstag building to gain more power.

i.e. an argument could be that: It's a communist plot, we must have these powers to fight the communists."

so he used the democratic process until it served his needs, much like it would appear with Clark in B5.

 

[Anwar]

"No Surrender, No Retreat" specifically involves Sheridan attacking at least one captain he's familiar with. They clearly were -not- all jerk villiains. Neither was the leader of the EA forces in "Endgame", for that matter, whom Sheridan was also familiar with. Ditto for the captain of the Agamemnon.

The Captain of the Agamemnon defected without any problems, they never really fought.

We, as the audience, never cared about whoever that guy Sheridan fought in "No Surrender, No Retreat" (wasn't that before the Civil War became the main plot?).

General Lefcourt? He also came to Sheridan's side at the end (of course, anyone would have by then) but more importantly they never fought a real battle before then. There was never any drama because Sheridan deus ex machina-ed his way of having to fight Lefcourt.

 

[Reverend]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Hitler was elected and we know how that turned out.

True, but my point was that while he was elected Vice-President, he assassinated his way into the Presidency.

He seized power.

No he wasn't.

My history might be a little rusty but Hitler ran to become President coming second. His party however had enough seats in the Reichstag to prevent the other main party from forming a Government after several attempts by them he was appointed Chancellor by Hindenberg. Hindenberg being Head of State whilst the position of Chancellor was more akin to Head of Government.

He then used the fire at the Riechstag building to gain more power.

i.e. an argument could be that: It's a communist plot, we must have these powers to fight the communists."

so he used the democratic process until it served his needs, much like it would appear with Clark in B5.

Also, it's worth noting that as far as 99.99% of Earth citizens were concerned at the time, Clark didn't assassinate his way into office but became President through legitimate succession after the tragic accident aboard Earthforce One. Though in reality it was a coup d'état, very few were aware this was the case. It's not like he shot Santiago in public and declared himself king of the universe or anything.

 

[Sindatur]

I am reading my way through this excellent exchange of ideas as time permits. Just made it to page 8 but have to stop for today. I liked Sinclaire's reserved style and believe it was played that way intentionally. Season one has some slow patches but I'm old enough to enjoy moving at that pace. As you can see below, I loved "TKO" and place it in my personal top 10 while it languishes in the bottom of most fans lists. Go figure.

I've gained a better appreciation for it over the years, but, yea, the first few times I watched it, it was amongst the 3 worst episodes (Actually Grey 17 is half good, even when I didn't like TKO, it was half good as well. Infection being the other bad episode)

 

[RandyS]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Hitler was elected and we know how that turned out.

True, but my point was that while he was elected Vice-President, he assassinated his way into the Presidency.

He seized power.

No he wasn't.

My history might be a little rusty but Hitler ran to become President coming second. His party however had enough seats in the Reichstag to prevent the other main party from forming a Government after several attempts by them he was appointed Chancellor by Hindenberg. Hindenberg being Head of State whilst the position of Chancellor was more akin to Head of Government.

He then used the fire at the Riechstag building to gain more power.

i.e. an argument could be that: It's a communist plot, we must have these powers to fight the communists."

so he used the democratic process until it served his needs, much like it would appear with Clark in B5.

No, I was referring to Clark, not Hitler.