When Does Babylon 5 not get boring?? lol...

[nightwind1]

As to the topic of DS9 ripping off B5, what utter, ignorant nonsense that is.

Oh, there's enough truth to it, alright. BUT, as I always like to say, it gave us TWO glorious space opera epics to enjoy, so what the hell.

That's kind of what I was trying to get across in my original post, but there are always SOME people who go batshit at the very THOUGHT that DS9 didn't spring, wholly original, from the Trek creators.

 

[Gov Kodos]

As to the topic of DS9 ripping off B5, what utter, ignorant nonsense that is.

Oh, there's enough truth to it, alright. BUT, as I always like to say, it gave us TWO glorious space opera epics to enjoy, so what the hell.

That's kind of what I was trying to get across in my original post, but there are always SOME people who go batshit at the very THOUGHT that DS9 didn't spring, wholly original, from the Trek creators.

This thread keeps trying to get away from this long dead zombie issue. Let it die, and stay dead.

 

[Forbin]

Another thing that was dropped was


SPOILERR!!!!!!!!!!!!!



the implication that Garibaldi fell off the wagon in order to short-circuit the "Asimov" Bester put on him. In the long run, that only turned into an alcoholism diatribe and was dropped when Michael dried out on his own.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Another thing that was dropped was


SPOILERR!!!!!!!!!!!!!



the implication that Garibaldi fell off the wagon in order to short-circuit the "Asimov" Bester put on him. In the long run, that only turned into an alcoholism diatribe and was dropped when Michael dried out on his own.

I had never thought of that as a reason or rationalization Garibaldi might have had for going back on the booze. It would have been an interesting way to bring in the problem.

 

[Pingfah]

To answer the very poorly phrased question in the OP, it was never a boring show IMO.

It was never must-see-tv either, but if you are the sort of person who would waste their life watching a whole season of a show they find boring, then you may as well carry on and be bored by the rest of it too.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The first and last seasons of B5 are to be largely avoided - large parts of them are sub-standard, qualitatively.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

That's another thing, JMS said that Garibaldi was basically right about his concerns with Sheridan and the cult of personality growing around him but nothing ever came of this.

The whole "He was controlled by Bester" thing basically made his valid concerns worthless and no one ever questions the Cult of personality again.

In the last B5 thread where I did much participating, I remember that being one of my big concerns.

No one could argue against Saint Sheridan. People who went against him weren't just wrong, they were evil. And like you said, the whole thing amounted to nothing because the one person who had the nerve to criticize the great Sheridan turned out to be mind-controlled the whole time. Derp! So, I guess everyone really does love Sheridan.

Frank Herbert would not approve.

 

[Forbin]

Another thing that was dropped was


SPOILERR!!!!!!!!!!!!!



the implication that Garibaldi fell off the wagon in order to short-circuit the "Asimov" Bester put on him. In the long run, that only turned into an alcoholism diatribe and was dropped when Michael dried out on his own.

I had never thought of that as a reason or rationalization Garibaldi might have had for going back on the booze. It would have been an interesting way to bring in the problem.

I may be hallucinating, but I swear I heard someone suggest to him that the block could be messed with by mind-altering substances.

 

[Jan]

the implication that Garibaldi fell off the wagon in order to short-circuit the "Asimov" Bester put on him. In the long run, that only turned into an alcoholism diatribe and was dropped when Michael dried out on his own.

I'm drawing a blank here - what implication? My impression was what we were shown onscreen - a control freak who found out he was being controlled deciding that if he was going to be out of control, it'd be his way. Heck, that's exactly what he said to Lise later on. I don't recall anybody saying anything about mind altering substances helping to circumvent the block...unless Franklin said something like that. Must check.

No one could argue against Saint Sheridan. People who went against him weren't just wrong, they were evil. And like you said, the whole thing amounted to nothing because the one person who had the nerve to criticize the great Sheridan turned out to be mind-controlled the whole time. Derp! So, I guess everyone really does love Sheridan.

I can't tell if you're commenting on how JMS wrote it or about what you saw in the show. Who was portrayed as evil for opposing Sheridan? And Garibaldi's suspicious nature was amplified but IMO the only control exerted was that he couldn't wring Bester's neck.

Jan

 

[JoeD80]

It was just that Garibaldi's block was making him depressed and feeding into the drinking. It was in the same episode when Lochley confronted him about his drinking that he figured out a solution to get back at Bester. Franklin did say he might have a solution but then Garibaldi and Lyta talked and he went with that one. We never hear what Franklin's idea was. JMS said Franklin's wouldn't have worked though.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, I don't see Garibaldi rationalising things to that degree. Indeed, as Jan points out we heard exactly what his rationalization was to Zack and later to Lise. One assumes that's what he'd been telling himself and not just a load of guff he pulled out of his arse.

I think the simple truth is that it was too much effort for him to not drink. After all, a person doesn't simply cease to be an alch. As with any addiction it's always going to be there and all it takes is the right amount of pressure to get them back on the bottle. The control freak in him couldn't stand the thought that Bester could still pull his strings and so he let the booze hound in him out of the cage to tear up the joint. I think the saddest thing is that unlike with Franklin and his problem, the whole time Garibaldi knew what he was doing, why he was doing it and where it'd probably lead him. Whether it was purely an attempt at self destruction or a cry for help is debatable. Probably a little of both.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

No one could argue against Saint Sheridan. People who went against him weren't just wrong, they were evil. And like you said, the whole thing amounted to nothing because the one person who had the nerve to criticize the great Sheridan turned out to be mind-controlled the whole time. Derp! So, I guess everyone really does love Sheridan.

I can't tell if you're commenting on how JMS wrote it or about what you saw in the show. Who was portrayed as evil for opposing Sheridan? And Garibaldi's suspicious nature was amplified but IMO the only control exerted was that he couldn't wring Bester's neck.

Jan

The way it was written, it was portrayed as though Sheridan could do no wrong. The only real opposition he had from EarthForce was of a more technical nature--even if some of the military agreed with him, they thought it was improper for the military to act against the civilian government. And by that token, they continued to support Clark, even though he was a crazy fascist who'd resort to annihilating his own homeworld rather than give up power.

So, I take it as his opponents being either stupid or pure evil.

It's been a while since I watched it, I just remember agreeing with a lot of what Garibaldi said. No one man should have that much power, especially not if he simply took it upon himself, as Sheridan did. But in-story, all criticisms of Sheridan were rendered moot by making Clark a complete madman. It's just too easy of an "out" for Sheridan, in my opinion.

 

[Jan]

I think the saddest thing is that unlike with Franklin and his problem, the whole time Garibaldi knew what he was doing, why he was doing it and where it'd probably lead him. Whether it was purely an attempt at self destruction or a cry for help is debatable. Probably a little of both.

Exactly. I hated the way his falling off the wagon was handled in "Survivors" with a firey passion for exactly that reason.

Jan

 

[JoeD80]

No one man should have that much power, especially not if he simply took it upon himself, as Sheridan did.

There was actually a planned three-parter for season five where Sheridan/Delenn's son would come back from the future to warn everyone that Sheridan was dangerous. Not sure why that one got dropped.

But in-story, all criticisms of Sheridan were rendered moot by making Clark a complete madman. It's just too easy of an "out" for Sheridan, in my opinion.

He got out because he managed to play the EA; they weren't going to just let him continue as if nothing happened. He just managed to turn it around on them by getting amnesty for his crew and releasing it to the press before he revealed he was the one in charge of the Interstellar Alliance.

 

[Anwar]

Also, there was the implication that Clarke was under the control of a Keeper. It's possible the Shadows put it on him right after he became President, or the Drakh put one on him after the Shadows left when the Civil War began (when Clarke became a real villain rather than a background one).

That whole "Circle the letters of a repeated sentence to spell out a secret message" thing? That was the real Clarke getting past his Keepers' control (to warn everyone of the self-destruct the Keeper set in motion) before it made him kill himself.

This of course would be another cop-out: Rather than just being some extreme guy who thought his ideas for Earth had to be done, Clarke turns out to be a madman because he was under the control of 2-D bad guys.

 

[Sindatur]

Also, there was the implication that Clarke was under the control of a Keeper. It's possible the Shadows put it on him right after he became President, or the Drakh put one on him after the Shadows left when the Civil War began (when Clarke became a real villain rather than a background one).

That whole "Circle the letters of a repeated sentence to spell out a secret message" thing? That was the real Clarke getting past his Keepers' control (to warn everyone of the self-destruct the Keeper set in motion) before it made him kill himself.

This of course would be another cop-out: Rather than just being some extreme guy who thought his ideas for Earth had to be done, Clarke turns out to be a madman because he was under the control of 2-D bad guys.

Spoiler: End of Season 4

I never had any thoughts that Clark had a Keeper, he was pretty evil from the get-go, no reason to do put one on him, IMHO. Also, Londo could only put one over on his, when we blind drunk, and I didn't get the impression Clark was intoxicated on anything but power.

 

[Anwar]

Being drunk is ONE way of getting by a Keeper, doesn't have to be the only way.

The Keeper thing was just a theory to explain why Clarke did the "Scorched Earth" secret message thing.

 

[JoeD80]

Clark was crazy on his own. Anyway, as Edgars said, Clark wasn't the issue. It was Psi Corps that was the real problem; they used Clark to help them gain more control.

 

[RandyS]

Being drunk is ONE way of getting by a Keeper, doesn't have to be the only way.

The Keeper thing was just a theory to explain why Clarke did the "Scorched Earth" secret message thing.

Nah. Clark was nothing but a psychotic bigot with delusions of granduer.

 

[stonester1]

I don't think he was crazy. He was power hungry, weak willed, not too bright, and could be manipulated by playing up to his fears and paranoia. If the Psi Corps needed to nudge him at all, it was probably less than and considerably easier than what they had to do to Garibaldi.