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Stone_Cold_Sisko
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From a quality level, when DS9 ended. It's tough to say though because most of Voyager overlapped with DS9, and when Voyager started is when DS9 got really good.
When did Trek "jump the shark?"
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Spock's mind meld in Trek XI.
Up until that point, the movie was getting by just fine as a nice clean reboot, albeit for the ADD generation, but then it turned into alternate timeline parallel universe time travelling bollocks tnat was so convoluted even Enterprise would've stayed away from it.
In fact, had Trek XI been an Enterprise episode, it would've been mercilessly ripped to shreds.
Up until that point, the movie was getting by just fine as a nice clean reboot, albeit for the ADD generation, but then it turned into alternate timeline parallel universe time travelling bollocks tnat was so convoluted even Enterprise would've stayed away from it.
In fact, had Trek XI been an Enterprise episode, it would've been mercilessly ripped to shreds.
Hear, hear! If the Trek franchise can survive TFF, it can survive anything.
What if all Trek which came after TFF had to feature Sybok as a main character? Would it matter how much money the films made? Would you want to watch them?
All new Star Trek will be aboard a Budweiser-powered starship built on a planetary surface in a universe with no Vulcan or Romulus and commanded by a captain who was promoted to that rank directly from cadet.
Not exactly a good foundation for success.
Honestly, Sybok wasn't the problem with TFF. It was just a muddled script, poorly executed. There was no reason why future writers couldn't have written good movies including Sybok. Heck, I've used elements from TFF in my own books.
As for the new flick, most of the stuff you're complaining about makes no difference when it comes to future storylines. The next time we see the new Enterprise in space, who cares if it was built on Earth or not? That doesn't limit any future story options. Ditto for Kirk's rapid promotion.
Kirk will be the captain of the Enterprise, exploring space. That's the same foundation we always had.
The destruction of Romulus and Vulcan are more serious matters, but, IMHO, the benefits of shaking up the ST universe in a big way outweighs the loss of a couple of planets. (Especially since Romulus is still around in the new universe--and will be for another hundred years or so.)
Besides, aside from "Amok Time" and a few brief stints in the movies, how often did the Enterprise visit Vulcan anyway?
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For those young'uns who may not be familiar with this expression it refers to an episode of the '70s series Happy Days when The Fonz attempted to jump a tank of sharks with his motorcycle. It has come to mean when a series (or franchise) has peaked and starts to slide downhill.
And so when do you think the Trek franchise "jumped the shark?"
For me, even with all my criticisms, I think it was Season 5 of TNG. Although I had criticisms before I think this is where the slide started as TNG started getting mired in its own formulas and cliches. It wasn't a dramatic and sudden drop, but in fits-and-starts it started to falter. And looking back I don't think the franchise ever recovered, at least not in the way I liked (in my opinion, as if that needs to be qualified).
I'm sure the Niners will loudly disagree, and that's their right, but then there was little about DS9 that I felt was like the Star Trek I recognize. Again, in my opinion.
If the Trek franchise had come to a stop after TNG Season 5 I think there'd be a lot more fond memories and the franchise and fandom as a whole would have more respect.
I'm not talking about popularity or box office takes. I'm talking about personal opinion. I've stated mine.
Now who else thinks the Trek franchise "jumped the shark" and when?
Note: I'm just waiting for someone to say after "The Cage."
Usually it refers to stunts that keeps a show going when they need to be put out of their misery...I don't think ST has ever done that...considering the huge profits of ST09, the ongoing comic and novel universes, the constant reruns (even Enterprise which was canceled had its best season in its last, and is constantly in reruns) , the dvds, etc etc, the "franchise" has yet to gasp for air.
RAMA
Sorry, this doesn't hold water...it got nominated for a WRITERS GUILD AWARD for its writing for Christ sake.
RAMA
I'd say Trek jumped the shark several times, and usually "grew the beard" (According to TVtropes, that's the opposite of jumping the shark) a while later. IMO it jumped the shark in late TOS Season 2, grew the beard with TWOK, jumped the shark with TNG season 1 and TFF, grew the beard with TNG season 3, jumped the shark with Voyager season 6, grew the beard with Enterprise season 3, and finally jumped the shark one last time with TATV and Trek XI.
SORRY THIS DOESNT HOLD WATER IT WON A WRITERS GUILD AWARD FOR CHRISTS SAKE
In my opinion, Trek has never "jumped the shark". Like everyone, there are characters, episodes, movies, and series that I like better than others (and some that I do not enjoy much at all), but Trek is still being made after all these years- nothing has been "fatal" yet. We are able to debate "Trek XI" because of a general tend of successes in the franchise, and is also why we are not talking about a "Happy Days XI" movie. Happy Days had a jump the shark moment and it has died and is gone, except for some fond memories that can be revisited on Nick.
Trek in successive years may have moments and themes that some fans do not like and they wish had never been filmed, but those fans can still have their cherished memories of bygone series, while many of the rest of us are enthusiastic to see what new additions to the franchise may develop.
Trek in successive years may have moments and themes that some fans do not like and they wish had never been filmed, but those fans can still have their cherished memories of bygone series, while many of the rest of us are enthusiastic to see what new additions to the franchise may develop.
Nice, someone else who thought the same thing I did.
My first thought on this thread was Star Trek's "fire" has been kept alive through all of the shows. Every shows got its ups and downs but nevertheless its done well.
Enterprise may of been "set back" and not as noble(humans with xenophobia, sexism, etc) as the others. But that was the point...humans hadn't "grown out of their infancy." yet, as John Luc Picard put it. But you can clearly see they where well on their way. I think it was well put together. Its just never became a fav of mine because I found the over use of time travel to be boring and I have never been into time travel/alternate dimensions eps in any Star Trek.
It was only NOMINATED FOR CHRISTS SAKE, and so was Borat. 'nuff said.
FOR CHRISTS SAKE!
As a franchise, probably sometime in the mid 1990s. The TNG Movies, Voyager and Enterprise were simply not comparable to the quality of TNG and DS9.
Since the only modern Trek I care about is TNG and DS9, I'll mention points in their history where I thought they lost something. TNG was a solid show throughout its run although I didn't like some of the changes I saw in the show during season 4. Less action, duller music, more formality and talkiness. I'm thinking of shows like "In Theory", "Half A Life" and "The Host". Too much talk. Data is too robotic, there's little fun, adventure, or conflict and the show abandoned its mission-of-the-week grounding.
I always liked DS9 and after a self conscious third season the show really improved in season 4. I think season 4 of DS9 maybe one of the best seasons of star trek of all time. You had the Dominion, the Klingons, and The Maquis and The Cardassians all playing of each other and you didn't know where the show was going to go. I tuned in every week wondering how the writers were going to play off all these elements. There was a lot of straightforward serious character episodes like "The Visitor", "Hippocratic Oath", "Crossfire", "Rules Of Engagement", "Hard Time", "For the Cause", and "To The Death". Avery Brooks gave a lot more power and authority to Sisko in season 4 and it really helped the show. The addition of Worf added dimension to the ensemble. The humor and the Dominion were part of the mix adding spice to the show but not dominating it. That's probably why I think the show seems weaker in its last 2 or 3 seasons. Too much jokiness and indulgence, too much Vic Fontaine, too many bad Ferengi episodes, bachelor party episodes, Section 31, tasteless Mirror universe episodes, Dominion War, Pah-reths, almost too much freedom to do whatever amused the writers. It was still a great show but the balance was off. If TNG didn't have enough fun and risk taking, then DS9 had too much freedom and indulgence in its later seasons. Just my opinion.
Since the only modern Trek I care about is TNG and DS9, I'll mention points in their history where I thought they lost something. TNG was a solid show throughout its run although I didn't like some of the changes I saw in the show during season 4. Less action, duller music, more formality and talkiness. I'm thinking of shows like "In Theory", "Half A Life" and "The Host". Too much talk. Data is too robotic, there's little fun, adventure, or conflict and the show abandoned its mission-of-the-week grounding.
I always liked DS9 and after a self conscious third season the show really improved in season 4. I think season 4 of DS9 maybe one of the best seasons of star trek of all time. You had the Dominion, the Klingons, and The Maquis and The Cardassians all playing of each other and you didn't know where the show was going to go. I tuned in every week wondering how the writers were going to play off all these elements. There was a lot of straightforward serious character episodes like "The Visitor", "Hippocratic Oath", "Crossfire", "Rules Of Engagement", "Hard Time", "For the Cause", and "To The Death". Avery Brooks gave a lot more power and authority to Sisko in season 4 and it really helped the show. The addition of Worf added dimension to the ensemble. The humor and the Dominion were part of the mix adding spice to the show but not dominating it. That's probably why I think the show seems weaker in its last 2 or 3 seasons. Too much jokiness and indulgence, too much Vic Fontaine, too many bad Ferengi episodes, bachelor party episodes, Section 31, tasteless Mirror universe episodes, Dominion War, Pah-reths, almost too much freedom to do whatever amused the writers. It was still a great show but the balance was off. If TNG didn't have enough fun and risk taking, then DS9 had too much freedom and indulgence in its later seasons. Just my opinion.
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