When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    As of season 6 episode 24 Lifeline, no they were not.

     
  2. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It consistently makes people's "worst things Janeway ever did" lists. Other consistent entries include "stranding her crew in the first place", "killing Tuvix", "going nuts with the Equinox", "destroying the timeline in 'Endgame'", and "not promoting Harry Kim".

    The Dominion pretty much did that already.

    The Maquis is dead. Cardassia is broken. The Federation government will at most let them off with a slap on the wrist and more likely allow them to retain their Starfleet commissions.
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Lets assume there were multiple terrorist acts where hundreds if not thousands of UFP citizens were killed or maimed.

    It's possible that some of Janeways crew was involved in at least one of those attacks.

    Meanwhile Cardassia is probably on the road to Federation membership, since the UFP President in the 32nd century is a Cardassian/Bajoran/human hybrid.

    Remember these Particular Maquis were so bad, that Janeway was on a kill mission to sanction every single member of Chakotay's cell... Are we certain that Janeway wasn't Section 31?
     
  4. PCz911

    PCz911 Captain Captain

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    It was the poor writing of the character that started the angst. If I recall, there ran were rumblings from the very early seasons

    Kate did the best she could with such an annoying character, but it’s difficult to avoid fan derision.
    Discovery is the same. The actress tries in this case also to do the best she can but the writing is horrid.
     
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  5. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think that the Maquis normally targeted Cardassians, not Federation people. The Federation targeted them due to the treaty with the Cardassians, a tresty which probably ended when Cardassia joined the Dominion.

    Section 31 would be too scared of Janeway to enlist her.

    Janeway was a great character, one I'm very fond of. But yes, she was a victim of sloppy writing. The whole show was.
     
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  6. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Helping the crew get home instead of choosing to stay in the brig sounds like "time served" to this viewer.
     
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  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which is a determination of a Judge swayed by the court of public opinion to be lenient... But what if the judge is a complete bastard?

    They do something awful to the Cardassians, a Starship shows up to protect the Cardassians, the Maquis fire a dozen torpedoes while trying to scoot to the badlands... If I fire fire 12 nukes into a crowd and no one dies, I'd want my money back, if money was a thing in the Federation, unless some Space Schindler is fiendishly giving the Maquis faulty weapons? Either way, words would be had.

    Let's not forget that B'Lanna tried to blow up an entire moon. She's blood thirsty, but she missed. Torress is fine with killing 40 million Cardassians, so maybe she had practice emotionally warming up to killing that many million Cardies?
     
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  8. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Was staying in the brig really even a viable option?

    They kept Suder confined to quarters, but they could hardly have done that if dozens of Maquis opted out.

    What I was always curious about was what would happen if someone on the ship was no longer able to perform or interested in performing their duties. Was everyone on Voyager considered conscripted? Was it 'work or get dropped off at the next habitable planet'? In the AQ you get transferred or resign your commission. What happens in this case?

    What if Tuvok or Janeway's pet projects had failed and the people in question weren't considered competent enough to perform duties?
     
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  9. Summer Solstice

    Summer Solstice Captain Captain

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    I don't think staying in the brig was a viable option.

    I could imagine someone who really wasn't happy leaving Voyager like when Tom pretended to leave in season 2. But all the Maquis crew were competent enough to be on Chakotay's ship so they were all reasonably good at something. I think it's more likely that some of the Starfleet crew wouldn't be competent enough to perform duties, like how Tal Celes seemed to be having big problems. I'm sure that anyone who was really bad at their job was good at something though, it's just a question of whether there was someone to do every job that needed to be done and keeping people sane is important. I don't think Neelix could have cooked for 150 people and been morale officer on his own because that's a massive amount of work so I'm sure he delegated bits of that to different people at various times.
     
  10. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    they explored this idea in Good Shepherd: the person in question is given an unimportant job and pretty much left to their own.
     
  11. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Looking at shipboard life through the eyes of a person like that might be interesting. Kind of like "Lower Decks", but no hope of bettering your situation via promotion.
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If you're happy with what you're doing, then a promotion isn't necessarily better?
     
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  13. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm more thinking someone who wouldn't have made it through the Academy. Someone who isn't good at anything a starship would need done, so he/she gets all the thankless jobs that don't require technical skill. Like washing dishes in Neelix's kitchen...
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Suder is a gimp.

    He's a non telepathic Betazoid.

    Image how he was treated as a child?

    Even the people trying to help him, would have made Lon feel like a huge moron.

    It's no wonder he killed people, and if he's used to being abused emotionally by telepaths, of course he's going to be triggered by unfavourable body language since most of his young life, Lon would have been failing to pass for a telepath and worried he's going to found out and be humiliated.

    Omg.

    Telepathically inert.

    Tuvok's mindmeld had no effect.

    The mo#herfucker faked it.

    It was all an act.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not going through the Academy doesn't necessarily mean anything though (witness Miles O'Brien).

    I think it's more likely that the Maquis would be welcome to all-comers, including those who wouldn't cut it in Starfleet, which is why it seems a little strange to me that they all became One Big Happy Crew.
     
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  16. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It seems strange to everyone, I think, with the sole exception of Voyager's writers. But given the other things that seemed to make perfect sense to them, I think that they existed on a seperate plane of reality from the rest of us.
     
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  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The final frontier, perhaps?
     
  18. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    the issue with that is that…well, what would they be doing on the maquis ship on the first place?

    Of course they could have had for example “grunts” that were only good bombing buildings, tried to assign them to security and found out they don’t function in a command structure. Or spies, good for mixing in with the enemy but mostly useless on voyager (well, they had seska…).
     
  19. Summer Solstice

    Summer Solstice Captain Captain

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    Most people have hobbies and some hobbies like gardening would translate into obviously useful things like working in hydroponics (and Kes probably isn't that worried about having a command structure) and some hobbies like music would be good for keeping everyone entertained and not bored during the quieter times on Voyager.
     
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  20. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Seska might have been more of an asset to Voyager than one might realize. A trained field operator, expert in espionage, sabotage, covert ops, and blending in with the enemy? A starship deep in enemy territory might find someone like that very useful.
     
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