When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

[Akillaprise]

We'll have to keep the LD spoilers and discussion out of this thread please. I myself haven't had a chance to watch their "love letter" to VOY yet. I'm sure it's tongue in cheek like most of LD.

 

[Lynx]

I've watched several Youtubers discuss their thoughts on Janeway, and it seems to range from "I disagree with certain decisions she made" to "Janeway is a mad interstellar despot". I think a lot of the latter was from the writers not willing to have Tuvok or Chakotay stand up to her more (because God forbid that Trek's first woman captain be fallible).

Good comment.
I think that's the reason for much of the criticizm against the character. Kirk, Picard and Sisko made mistakes and were sometimes criticized for it, even by their closest friends and officers. Janeway seldom did anything wrong and was seldom criticized.

Personally I like the character but I can see some flaws here and there.

 

[Dee1891]

To paraphrase Lincoln, if you would know the true character of a person, offer them power. And actors have it.



Attacks on your opponent are never a good thing. Once I reduced an adversary to ad hominem attacks, I knew my point was made.



I didn't say VOY's general quality was affected by actor conflicts. It was mainly affected by sloppy writing and executive interference.

As far as I'm concerned, just about every Trek production I've seen has been guilty of this. And I certainly don't believe that VOY was more guilty of this than any other within the franchise.

 

[Pumpkin Bread]

As far as I'm concerned, just about every Trek production I've seen has been guilty of this. And I certainly don't believe that VOY was more guilty of this than any other within the franchise.

What I feel VOY was worst at was...
1. Simple sloppiness. Instead of spending a few seconds of dialogue to resolve an inconsistency, they just ignored it.
2. Reset button hammering. Events that should have had a profound effect on a character were forgotten by next week.

These issues had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Kathryn Janeway, Kate Mulgrew, or women in general.

 

[fireproof78]

What I feel VOY was worst at was...
1. Simple sloppiness. Instead of spending a few seconds of dialogue to resolve an inconsistency, they just ignored it.
2. Reset button hammering. Events that should have had a profound effect on a character were forgotten by next week.

These issues had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Kathryn Janeway, Kate Mulgrew, or women in general.

Yup.

It's not that Trek hasn't done it before. It's that it stands out more with sheer repetition.

 

[Pumpkin Bread]

Other Treks have had the "the captain is right" trope too. I remember Lorerunner hammering "Dear Doctor" on the subject.

 

[Lynx]

Tuvix was 4 people.

All of Neelix, all of Tuvok, an Ocampan Lung and a million year old case of sapient space herpies.

Actually if Neelix's lungs grew back when they separated Tuvix... His "new" body would have been saturated with oxygen, and been sorta drunk for the rest of his life.

All four of them should have walked away from that day with the post hypnotic commands to murderspree all the Maquis.

When did an Ocampa lung become a person?

 

[Guy Gardener]

When did an Ocampa lung become a person?

You forgot to count Tuvix.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

Nah,

'Do as I say, not as I do', Calamity Janeway.

I believe SFDebris' review of Voyager and Janeway specifically have become a legend to themselves.

Where TOS was mainly Kirk, Spock and McCoy. TNG was mainly Picard, Riker and Data. DS9 was mainly Sisko, Kira and Odo. ENT was mainly Archer, Tucker and T'Pol.

VOY was mainly Janeway. Chakotay was more chump, than chief. Tuvok was underutilized and would've made a better first officer. Kim is an ensign nobody. Tom is a nice guy and jack of all trades. But he's no leader. B'Ellana was the engineer with the attitude. Neelix was comic relief. Kes was dumped for Kim. Seven learned a lesson every episode for 3 seasons. The Doctor was no leader or command authority.


Janeway gets a lot of grief for being the spear of all decisions regarding VOY and retaliating when her decisions are challenged.

See what she did to Chakotay in both Scorpion and in Equinox.

Giving Harry a formal reprimand in his record for fraternizing with a woman in The Disease.

Killing Tuvix, despite his protests to continue existing as he was and the Doctor refusing to end the life of a sentient being.

Janeway preaching to the crew that an alliance was a bad idea, in Alliances. While previously supporting forming one in an earlier episode.

There are other examples, but I'm sure you get my meaning.

Nah, it's just "MISAWGUHNEE", the usual go-to excuse for poorly written female characters.

 

[Ragitsu]

I can see your point.

Personally I don't care about the private lives and opinions of actors. I focus on the series and characters. The same when it comes to writers, producers and such.

I know that William Shatner has a bad reputation but it don't bother me at all as long I'm not affected in some way of it. I like his portraying of Captain Kirk.

But when the behavior of actors, writers and producers affects a series I like, then I just have to comment on it.
My argumentive nature shows up, or should I say "Mr Hyde"!

In the end, I was simply putting forth my two Federation credits; like any other human, I believe they deserve to live well, but...this fellow's time is better spent compartmentalizing the performance from the performer while discussing the former.

 

[at Quark's]

"Jennifer had left of her own free will"

To me this sounds exactly like the kind of statement that's vague enough that it could both mean she really left because she decided to do so herself in all freedom, or a statement that could technically have been true but possibly not in reality (e.g. she was presented with a choice that wasn't really much of a choice at all).

 

[Ragitsu]

Janeway experienced more evolution in a day than most characters do over the course of their lives.

 

[Guy Gardener]

To me this sounds exactly like the kind of statement that's vague enough that it could both mean she really left because she decided to do so herself in all freedom, or a statement that could technically have been true but possibly not in reality (e.g. she was presented with a choice that wasn't really much of a choice at all).

There is an argument that the Prophets killed Jennifer to upskill Sisko.

He never would have taken the Bajor job if his wife was still alive.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway experienced more evolution in a day than most characters do over the course of their lives.

I could argue that the Effects of Caretaker left her nonplussed.

Same woman before and after.

Zero Evolution.

 

[Pumpkin Bread]

Maybe the best way to settle the question is to show how Janeway's character was demonstrably different between Season 1 and Season 7.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Maybe the best way to settle the question is to show how Janeway's character was demonstrably different between Season 1 and Season 7.

Season two she kicks Tom off the ship for hosting an illegal lottery.

Season 7, she's betting on which hour Tom's kid is going to extrude.

It's hard not to evolve over the course of 7 years, but we were talking about the dramatic shift in Kath's personality because of three days worth of chaos.

 

[DonIago]

I thought the comment about Janeway's evolution was a "Threshold" joke...

 

[Ragitsu]

...had I continued biting my tongue, chances are it would have been severed some time in the evening.

 

[DonIago]

...had I continued biting my tongue, chances are it would have been severed some time in the evening.

And that's another "Threshold" joke.

 

[Ragitsu]

And that's another "Threshold" joke.

Okay, THAT one was a Tuvix...I swear.