When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Captain Captain

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    Good morning.

    Curious...was this vehemently contemptuous attitude in the Star Trek fan base towards Janeway's personality/decisions always a "thing" even back during the 1990s or did it become grossly evident later on down the line (perhaps with the advent of YouTube)?
     
  2. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Youtube started in 2005. These viewpoints were certainly around well before then.

    Kor
     
  3. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I started to visit some Voyager forums in the spring of 1998 after finding out that kes had been dumped.
    Before that I avoided all the Voyager forums because I didn't wan't to spoil the fun by reading about episodes I hadn't watched.

    Anyway, back then the fanbase was split up when it came to Janeway. A lot of fans adored her, some liked her but there were also some fans who hated her. I guess that it was about 70-30 in janeway's favor.

    Neelix was really despised by many fans which actually surprised me. I'd started to watch Voyager a few months earlier and found Neelix a rather harmless and sometimes funny character, besides that I liked the episode jetrel which gave us his tragic background story.

    Some fans disliked kim who they thought was a cry-baby. The other characters were mostly liked as it was.
     
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  4. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    'Do as I say, not as I do', Calamity Janeway.

    I believe SFDebris' review of Voyager and Janeway specifically have become a legend to themselves.

    Where TOS was mainly Kirk, Spock and McCoy. TNG was mainly Picard, Riker and Data. DS9 was mainly Sisko, Kira and Odo. ENT was mainly Archer, Tucker and T'Pol.

    VOY was mainly Janeway. Chakotay was more chump, than chief. Tuvok was underutilized and would've made a better first officer. Kim is an ensign nobody. Tom is a nice guy and jack of all trades. But he's no leader. B'Ellana was the engineer with the attitude. Neelix was comic relief. Kes was dumped for Kim. Seven learned a lesson every episode for 3 seasons. The Doctor was no leader or command authority.


    Janeway gets a lot of grief for being the spear of all decisions regarding VOY and retaliating when her decisions are challenged.

    See what she did to Chakotay in both Scorpion and in Equinox.

    Giving Harry a formal reprimand in his record for fraternizing with a woman in The Disease.

    Killing Tuvix, despite his protests to continue existing as he was and the Doctor refusing to end the life of a sentient being.

    Janeway preaching to the crew that an alliance was a bad idea, in Alliances. While previously supporting forming one in an earlier episode.

    There are other examples, but I'm sure you get my meaning.
     
  5. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I can only speak for myself, but I disliked Mulgrew's portrayal from the start, and unlike the other Trek shows, I didn't grow fonder of some members of the cast as the seasons passed.

    The ongoing writing for Janeway made things worse and to this day I dislike the character.
     
  6. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Captain Captain

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    Ditto. Hell, I never minded Wesley Crusher.
     
  7. shapeshifter

    shapeshifter Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    She was not bad, I never hated her. Just not written as well as she could have been. And that goes for all the VOY characters, they all did what they could with what they got handed.

    Poor execution by the producers is the reason imo for the shows woes. Some blame may be assigned to directors not understanding the material, maybe?

    On the other hand, every once in a while they were firing on all cylinders with great stories and some great character beats. There are some very good episodes.
     
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  8. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Captain Captain

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    It seems as though the Tuvix incident was her own mini-Delta Quadrant Kobayashi Maru. Either way, people would have found a reason to hate her guts.
     
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  9. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Commodore Commodore

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    Hate is a strong word for me.
    Janeway is my least favorite captain. But that doesn't mean I hate her. Some good, some bad, mostly meh.
    But happy to see her in prodigy and hope she's provided better scripts.
     
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  10. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Neelix always greatly annoyed me. When I first got the Elite Force game, I vaporized Neelix at the first opportunity. :evil: Unfortunately, that ends the game. :shrug:

    Kor
     
  11. HappyMcWonderful

    HappyMcWonderful Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    She was poorly written from the get-go. Kate did the best she could with what she had been handed. If there had been a more coherent effort behind the scenes to create a defined character for her and STICK WITH IT, she'd would have been better received.

    I dislike the CHARACTER of Janeway, but I have nothing against her general concept or the actress that played her. I see Prodigy as a chance to redress some of the issues.
     
  12. Feltman_Langer

    Feltman_Langer Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    As that is really targetted at 9-14 year olds not sure if that will happen :)
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She killed Tuvix.

    There's no coming back from that.
     
  14. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    I always liked her, but she really was written incoherently...the joke about her being bipolar comes from the fact that her behavior in a given episode can be the total opposite than in a previous.
     
  15. Danja

    Danja Commodore Commodore

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    TOS = Vulcan First Officer

    Tuvok/Janeway woud've been too reminiscent of Kirk and Spock.
     
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  16. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    By S4, it was mainly Janeway, Doctor & Seven.
     
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  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  18. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There could be quite a few things.
    1. Over-sensitivity. On one occasion I put up a post with several reasons why Chakotay would have made a better captain. Someone immediately accused me of hating women. I don't hate women, and I actually really like Janeway, middle school principal voice and all. Critiquing Janeway is not hating her.
    2. Disliked decisions. These include but are not limited to stranding her crew in the first place, splitting Tuvix, making deals with the Borg, going nuts with the Equinox, obliterating the timeline in Endgame, and refusing to promote Harry Kim.
    3. Backlash from the "Janeway is awesome" trope. There's a reason why I call Janeway the Chuck Norris of Star Trek, and it's not fully complimentary.
    4. Her series has not aged well. DS9 was the bastard middle child when it was in production, but now it's considered one of the best Treks ever. Voyager, contrastingly, fell far short of its potential. This is largely because of a conscious decision to back away from the show's unique aspects (deprivation, lack of support, and potential internal conflict) and turn it into TNG Mark II.
    5. Unfavorable comparison to DS9. Did you see a neglected character on DS9? I didn't. Compare the incredible development of Sisko against the relatively static Janeway, Kira against Chakotay, Nog against Kim. And unlike any other second-wave (1987-2005) Trek, I can't think of one character who wasn't promoted appropriately.
    6. Sexism. As deplorable as we might find it, it's a very real thing. Would the 2016 Ghostbusters reboot have gotten as much hate with a mixed cast? I doubt it.
     
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  19. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Captain Captain

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    In this instance, I do not possess your surety. You see, Tuvok was fully Vulcan and not at all interested in seeking out/struggling with inner humanity in the manner of Spock. Also, while some have termed Janeway "The female Kirk", their command styles aren't quite the same. With proper writing and time, any relation between the two pairs would have ultimately been...superficial.

    That was a shocking moment: shocking because of her temporary tunnel vision and shocking how Beltran was suddenly so assertive (Chakotay was typically as forceful as a wet cardboard stand).
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
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  20. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Which is hilarious, because Jeri Taylor and Michael Piller crafted Janeway to be a female Picard initially. The speaking patterns, the speeches, the diplomacy outreach, the principles. They made Janeway a fan of coffee, instead of tea. While making Janeway a fan of Victorian era holo-novels. Picard was a fan of 1940s crime noirs.

    Later, Voyager would see Janeway become more of an action hero. Complete with T&A, provided by Seven. Because low-ratings.

    Of course. But it was chiefly Janeway's show. With Seven being akin to an apprentice to Janeway for all the "Seven learns a lesson episodes. Or when the Borg came calling for another butt-kicking by little ship that could. With the Doctor, Janeway had to sign off and accommodate the Doctor's expanding hologram development, rights and demands.
     
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