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When did ST move into an alternate universe to our own?

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Did 9/11 happen in ST?
In Storm Front (pt two), when Archer and Daniels are watching the timeline correct itself you can briefly see the world trade center attack.

Except its categorically wrong, because star trek demonstrably includes our entire world history, and timeline up until 1960, and game of thrones does not.
Game of Thrones isn't set on Earth, it's a different planet.

My two cent of the sci-fi and fantasy thing. Star Trek is a blend of both sci-fi and fantasy. It really is mostly fantasy, with a sprinkling of sci-fi added here and there.

Even if there was a clear difference between sci-fi and fantasy, that difference wouldn't apply to Star Trek.

:devil:
 
And yet, neither Star Trek TrekLit nor The Name of the Rose is shelved in the nonfiction area of the library, which is the point. There are no degrees of whether a work is fiction or not. It either is or it isn't, despite the fact that a work of fiction may contain one, more, or many elements that aren't fictitious.

Obviously there are degrees to which something is fictional, and the fact we call something fiction, is neither here nor there. Semi fiction is an example of this. "based on a true story".

As for the fact its in the fiction section. So what? We've already established there are different categorisations for fiction too.

Fiction is the form of any work that deals, in part or in whole, with information or events that are not real, but rather, imaginary and theoretical—that is, invented by the author.

Star Trek deals in part in the real, and in part in the not real at this point. Ie its theoretical.

Saying this is the same as fantasy is ridiculous. Fantasy is not sci fi. They are completely different categorisations of fiction.

Also, its like you dont understand what fiction means.

Non fiction deals exclusively with factual and assumed factual.

There is realistic fiction and non realistic fiction.

Realistic fiction, although untrue, could actually happen. Some events, people, and places may even be real.

Non-realistic fiction is that in which the story's events could not happen in real life, which involve an alternate form of history of mankind other than that recorded, or need impossible technology.

Except its categorically wrong, because star trek demonstrably includes our entire world history, and timeline up until 1960, and game of thrones does not.

(facepalm)

Also science fiction is defined by its differences to fantasy, and is largely characterised by its potential and plausibility. Again you ignore this or simply dont understand it.

Are you trying to say that if a piece of fiction makes references to real world events, it is therefore actually a historical document?

Yes. Everything is a historical document. But to answer your intended point, that would be historical fiction. Its still based on the real world though.

Except its categorically wrong, because star trek demonstrably includes our entire world history, and timeline up until 1960, and game of thrones does not.

That is, again, a distinction without a difference in this context. It is just as fictional either way, and that is what puts them in the same category. The category of "fiction".


Also science fiction is defined by its differences to fantasy, and is largely characterised by its potential and plausibility. Again you ignore this or simply dont understand it.

Science Fiction is Fiction. Fantasy is Fiction. They are fictions. Neither is OUR world or timeline.

The fact its fictional, doesn't mean anything. The distinction without merit is your idea that something being fictional, has any bearing on its veracity, other than to denote that some of it is a construct.

If all of Game of Thrones is a construct, and its not based in this world, then its fantasy.

If Star Trek is based on our world, and is historically following our timeline up until 1960, and is a projection of technology, then its science fiction.

Its not a distinction without difference. Its a completely different genre.

Fiction doesn't denote that its not our world or timeline. All it denotes is some of it is a construct.

Did 9/11 happen in ST?
In Storm Front (pt two), when Archer and Daniels are watching the timeline correct itself you can briefly see the world trade center attack.

Except its categorically wrong, because star trek demonstrably includes our entire world history, and timeline up until 1960, and game of thrones does not.
Game of Thrones isn't set on Earth, it's a different planet.

My two cent of the sci-fi and fantasy thing. Star Trek is a blend of both sci-fi and fantasy. It really is mostly fantasy, with a sprinkling of sci-fi added here and there.

Even if there was a clear difference between sci-fi and fantasy, that difference wouldn't apply to Star Trek.

:devil:

A planet that doesnt exist.

I think Star Trek is firmly categorised as Sci fi. It is based in our world, and our world history for the most part. It is a vision and a projection of the future. Of course its entertainment and a space story, but that doesn't make it fantasy.
 
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I didn't say that different kinds of fiction were in every way equivalent. What I said was that there was a point at play here that AirCommodore was making. For the limited purposes that point, the distinctions between them don't matter. He said the same thing.

The fictional Star Trek timeline contains events that occur before its fictionalized version of humanity ever came into existence, such as one of the hero starships being present at the creation of the universe, one race of aliens directing the evolution of life on Earth, and sentient dinosaurs escaping to another part of the galaxy, which either you believe in their complete specificity to have happened in real life, or you accept that Star Trek's fictional universe is distinct from the real universe by a point in time no later than one before mankind ever existed, or you deem your question unanswerable.

This has been discussed now, ad nauseam.
 
I didn't say that different kinds of fiction were in every way equivalent. What I said was that there was a point at play here that AirCommodore was making. For the limited purposes that point, the distinctions between them don't matter. He said the same thing.

The fictional Star Trek timeline contains events that occur before its fictionalized version of humanity ever came into existence, such as one of the hero starships being present at the creation of the universe, one race of aliens directing the evolution of life on Earth, and sentient dinosaurs escaping to another part of the galaxy, which either you believe in their complete specificity to have happened in real life, or you accept that Star Trek's fictional universe is distinct from the real universe by a point in time no later than one before mankind ever existed, or you deem your question unanswerable.

This has been discussed now, ad nauseam.

If you don't like the discussion, then by all means stop clicking.

For the limited purposes of this discussion, it doesnt matter that its classed as fiction, because it trades on a real world history.

The fact it includes things that we dont believe in, as plot interventions does-not-matter-what-so-ever. We still get back to the same place. Like I said before, a real departure into an alternate universe would include something that affects us now.

You are also missing the point, that even if we included this idea of irrelevant plot points after the fact, you are still looking at something that comes into being after the fact. The thing is set in the future, so they have yet to go back in time in our timeline.

And no, calling something fiction does not mean its a distinct universe, as there is nothing in literature that makes that assertion.

Fiction = partly constructed, not different universe.

Using your rules, the fact there is a character who doesn't exist going back in time at all, basically means the whole thing is alternate universe, if they go back before our time. This is a bit of a silly distinction, as the major points of history are all the same.

For it to be an alternate universe, for me anyways, it would be based on a demonstrably different account of our history. The point were this first diverges is in the eugenics war. If you include time travel, then the information technology boom can be included, although this is really more explanatory than a radically different history. If you simply want the first instance of ST going back as far as possible before our time, then of course you can use the dawn of creation, but its a disingenuous example as it simply doesnt affect the timeline or our recorded history.
 
The fact its fictional, doesn't mean anything. The distinction without merit is your idea that something being fictional, has any bearing on its veracity, other than to denote that some of it is a construct.

Oh contraire! It being fictional makes it NOT our timeline or world. It makes no difference if it has Dragons or Organians, Death Stars or V'Gers, Wizards or Q's. It's all fictional. It makes no difference whatsoever as to how closely the authors try to make it resemble our Earth and our history. No difference at all.

That doesn't mean there are not distinctions to be made between different literary genres. But in terms of the question of whether or not it is OUR timeline, these distinctions make no difference. Even a fictional version of Earth made to closely resemble ours is nevertheless fictional, and thus NOT our world.
 
In short, even after all these series, human history is taught in SF academy, and ...

The Greek civilization arose approximately 2700 BC. Much of Earth's culture and philosophy began with the Greeks. To Captain James T. Kirk in the 23rd century, the Greek civilization was seen as the beginnings of a "Golden Age". (TOS: "Who Mourns for Adonais?")

Another ancient civilization, the Egyptians, constructed large pyramids as part of their accomplishments. Their Great Pyramid of Giza was the largest of the pyramids built in Egypt and was finished around 2600 BC. Its construction was observed by time-traveling anthropologists beginning in 2769. (ENT: "Cold Front")

Some battles that took place in ancient Human history were remembered into the 24th century. One such battle was a small band of Spartans led by King Leonidas, who defended a mountain pass against the vast Persian army at the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC. The Spartans put up a "heroic struggle" (according to Julian Bashir), until they were wiped out. (DS9: "What You Leave Behind")

Roman carriage, Timestream
A Roman chariot
The Roman Empire – arising in the first century BC and lasting in one form or another until the 15th century – was the first major global power in Human history. The Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar (63 BC – 14 AD) was viewed by many, including Khan, as having achieved great things for the Empire during his reign. (TOS: "Space Seed") The Roman Empire was seen by Jean-Luc Picard to have begun its fall as a civilization in the 5th century when the Visigoths attacked the capital city of Rome during the reign of the Emperor Honorious. (TNG: "The Best of Both Worlds")
Following on the heels of Rome was a popular religion, Christianity, with a basic philosophy of, as Spock summarized it, "total love and total brotherhood". It arose in the ancient world beginning in the 1st century and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. The religion considered Christ to be the son of God. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses")

Pre-warp history Edit
A member of Species 8472 said of Humans in 2375, "At first glance they're so primitive. Genetic impurities, no telepathy, violent. And yet they've created so many beautiful ways to convey their ideas: literature, art, music." (VOY: "In the Flesh") Unfortunately, Human history before the discovery of the warp drive is, in many ways, not defined by literature, art, and music but by military conflicts, plague, and inhumanity.
Joust, Timestream
A knight jousting on horseback
The trend begins with a series of related military campaigns – fought for causes both religious and political – that took place during the 11th century through the 13th century. These were known as the Crusades. These wars gave Human history "character" according to Q. (DS9: "Q-Less")
Half of Europe was killed by the bubonic plague circa 1334. Flint saw it that summer from Constantinople: "... It marched through the streets, the sewers. It left the city by ox cart, by sea, to kill half of Europe. The rats, rustling and squealing in the night as they, too, died." (TOS: "Requiem for Methuselah")

Beginning in 1478, the Spanish Inquisition was founded in Spain to suppress heresies against the Christian religion. The Inquisition was regarded by Humans as a particularly brutal institution into at least the 24th century, and was regarded by Q as another historical event that provided character to Humanity and kept it from being boring. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home; DS9: "Q-Less")

By 1485, Earth had recovered from plague and war to achieve a technological level equivalent to a "B" rating on the industrial scale used by 23rd century Starfleet. (TOS: "Spock's Brain")

Another inquisition in the name of Christianity took place during the 17th century. The scientist Galileo Galilei publicly supported the idea that the Earth was not the center of the universe. He was tried and convicted of heresy in 1633 by an inquisition as a result, and many of his books were burned. (DS9: "In the Hands of the Prophets")

The 17th century also saw the start of many uprisings and revolutions against oppressive governments and empires. The Pueblo Revolt in 1680 was one. As described by Deanna Troi and Anthwara in 2370:

Troi: "everal Indian tribes rose up against their Spanish overlords and drove them out of what is now called New Mexico."
Anthwara: "Ten years later, the Spanish returned to reconquer the area. They were ... brutal ... I would use the word savage. They killed our people by the hundreds ... maimed thousands more."
According to Anthwara, one of the Spaniards was an ancestor of Picard's named Javier Maribona-Picard. (TNG: "Journey's End")
George Washington
A sketch of George Washington
Another took place in the late 18th century, when George Washington helped win a war for his colonies' independence from Great Britain. This was generally known as the American Revolution and resulted in the establishment of the United States of America. In 2366 some, such as Beverly Crusher, considered Washington a military general; others, such as Kyril Finn, considered him a terrorist. (TNG: "The High Ground")
Commerce arose in the United States following the revolution, and throughout the 18th century and 19th century, ocean-going "Yankee Traders" sailed the oceans in search of mercantile opportunity. (TNG: "The Last Outpost")

In 1794, army general Napoléon Bonaparte rose to power, installing himself as absolute ruler of France in 1799, declared himself Emperor of France, and subsequently dominated Europe. The British Royal Navy, led by Admiral Horatio Nelson, defeated the combined French and Spanish fleet at the Battle of Trafalgar in October 1805. Napoleon was ultimately defeated at Waterloo in 1815 due to the combined efforts of the British General Wellington, and the Prussian General Blucher. (TNG: "Hide and Q", "The Best of Both Worlds"; VOY: "The Thaw")

First World War
The destructive mechanization of World War I
Human civilization experienced major wars that involved nearly every continent on Earth during the 20th and 21st centuries. The first two such wars – the first and second World Wars – saw six million and eleven million Humans die, respectively, from the effects of despotism alone. The third resulted in 37 million such deaths, and a total of 600 million Human deaths. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses"; Star Trek: First Contact; VOY: "In the Flesh")
In "Bread and Circuses", Spock gave casualty figures for each of World Wars I, II, and III. His figures are substantially off for total casualties that records show for the first and second world wars, even when all civilians are taken out of the equation. Only by assuming he was discussing deaths from despotism alone (reasonable in the context of his statement) do the numbers appear to match both data known in 1967 and later Trek statements on WWIII deaths.
Adolf Hitler, Timestream
Adolf Hitler marches with Nazi flag
The Second World War was a conflict, in part, between the forces of fascism – epitomized by Germany's Adolf Hitler and his Nazi political party – and those who opposed such a form of government. (TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever") Initially assuming an official position of neutrality, the United States fully entered the conflict after a Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor. (TNG: "The Enemy") Hitler and his allies were defeated, but left controversy in their wake. In the 23rd century, some, such as Spock, saw the Nazis as sadistic; some, such as Kirk saw them as "brutal, perverted" and that they "had to be destroyed at a terrible cost". Still others, such as John Gill, saw them governing over the "most efficient state... Earth ever knew", and believed that some of the Nazi approaches could prove beneficial to a society. Spock agreed with Gill, at least as to efficiency: "That tiny country – beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination." (TOS: "Patterns of Force"; VOY: "The Killing Game", "The Killing Game, Part II"; ENT: "Storm Front", "Storm Front, Part II")
Multiple brush wars occurred on the Asian continent involving two great powers. (TOS: "A Private Little War")

It is possible that Kirk may have been referencing the Korean War (1950-1953) and the Vietnam War (1957-1975), which both involved the United States and the Soviet Union.
Sputnik I
Sputnik I in orbit of Earth in 1957
The 20th century also saw the rise of nuclear weaponry and the beginnings of space exploration. In 1947, the three Ferengi Quark, his brother Rom, and nephew Nog were accidentally transported back in time from the 24th century to Roswell, New Mexico, and were mistaken for Martians. After returning to their own time by using beta radiation from a nuclear explosion, the incident was passed off by the government as a weather balloon. (DS9: "Little Green Men")
The Soviet Union launched the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1 on October 4, 1957. (ENT: "Carbon Creek")

1968, the year in which a malfunctioning orbital nuclear weapon nearly detonated, was viewed by 23rd century Humans as one of the most critical years on record. Then-current Earth crises "would fill a tape bank", according to Spock. Assassinations, government coups, wars in Asia, the Communist/Capitalist conflicts, and orbiting hydrogen bombs were among the greatest problems facing Humanity at that time. (TOS: "Assignment: Earth", "A Private Little War", "The Omega Glory") Despite this, Humanity first landed two men on Earth's moon and returned them safely to Earth the following year. (VOY: "One Small Step", "Threshold"; ENT: "Carbon Creek")

TOS: "Assignment: Earth" predicted that in 1968 a government coup would take place in an Asian country. In the real 1968, a coup did occur in Asia, in the country of Iraq. That episode – broadcast in March of 1968 – also predicted an "important" assassination for 1968. Dr. Martin Luther King was killed in April; Robert Kennedy in June. The Watergate break-in and cover-up of the 1970s was also mentioned by Q as being an event which gave Human history "character". (DS9: "Q-Less")The Greek civilization arose approximately 2700 BC. Much of Earth's culture and philosophy began with the Greeks. To Captain James T. Kirk in the 23rd century, the Greek civilization was seen as the beginnings of a "Golden Age". (TOS: "Who Mourns for Adonais?")

Another ancient civilization, the Egyptians, constructed large pyramids as part of their accomplishments. Their Great Pyramid of Giza was the largest of the pyramids built in Egypt and was finished around 2600 BC. Its construction was observed by time-traveling anthropologists beginning in 2769. (ENT: "Cold Front")

Some battles that took place in ancient Human history were remembered into the 24th century. One such battle was a small band of Spartans led by King Leonidas, who defended a mountain pass against the vast Persian army at the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC. The Spartans put up a "heroic struggle" (according to Julian Bashir), until they were wiped out. (DS9: "What You Leave Behind")

Roman carriage, Timestream
A Roman chariot
The Roman Empire – arising in the first century BC and lasting in one form or another until the 15th century – was the first major global power in Human history. The Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar (63 BC – 14 AD) was viewed by many, including Khan, as having achieved great things for the Empire during his reign. (TOS: "Space Seed") The Roman Empire was seen by Jean-Luc Picard to have begun its fall as a civilization in the 5th century when the Visigoths attacked the capital city of Rome during the reign of the Emperor Honorious. (TNG: "The Best of Both Worlds")
Following on the heels of Rome was a popular religion, Christianity, with a basic philosophy of, as Spock summarized it, "total love and total brotherhood". It arose in the ancient world beginning in the 1st century and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. The religion considered Christ to be the son of God. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses")

Pre-warp history Edit
A member of Species 8472 said of Humans in 2375, "At first glance they're so primitive. Genetic impurities, no telepathy, violent. And yet they've created so many beautiful ways to convey their ideas: literature, art, music." (VOY: "In the Flesh") Unfortunately, Human history before the discovery of the warp drive is, in many ways, not defined by literature, art, and music but by military conflicts, plague, and inhumanity.
Joust, Timestream
A knight jousting on horseback
The trend begins with a series of related military campaigns – fought for causes both religious and political – that took place during the 11th century through the 13th century. These were known as the Crusades. These wars gave Human history "character" according to Q. (DS9: "Q-Less")
Half of Europe was killed by the bubonic plague circa 1334. Flint saw it that summer from Constantinople: "... It marched through the streets, the sewers. It left the city by ox cart, by sea, to kill half of Europe. The rats, rustling and squealing in the night as they, too, died." (TOS: "Requiem for Methuselah")

Beginning in 1478, the Spanish Inquisition was founded in Spain to suppress heresies against the Christian religion. The Inquisition was regarded by Humans as a particularly brutal institution into at least the 24th century, and was regarded by Q as another historical event that provided character to Humanity and kept it from being boring. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home; DS9: "Q-Less")

By 1485, Earth had recovered from plague and war to achieve a technological level equivalent to a "B" rating on the industrial scale used by 23rd century Starfleet. (TOS: "Spock's Brain")

Another inquisition in the name of Christianity took place during the 17th century. The scientist Galileo Galilei publicly supported the idea that the Earth was not the center of the universe. He was tried and convicted of heresy in 1633 by an inquisition as a result, and many of his books were burned. (DS9: "In the Hands of the Prophets")

The 17th century also saw the start of many uprisings and revolutions against oppressive governments and empires. The Pueblo Revolt in 1680 was one. As described by Deanna Troi and Anthwara in 2370:

Troi: "everal Indian tribes rose up against their Spanish overlords and drove them out of what is now called New Mexico."
Anthwara: "Ten years later, the Spanish returned to reconquer the area. They were ... brutal ... I would use the word savage. They killed our people by the hundreds ... maimed thousands more."
According to Anthwara, one of the Spaniards was an ancestor of Picard's named Javier Maribona-Picard. (TNG: "Journey's End")
George Washington
A sketch of George Washington
Another took place in the late 18th century, when George Washington helped win a war for his colonies' independence from Great Britain. This was generally known as the American Revolution and resulted in the establishment of the United States of America. In 2366 some, such as Beverly Crusher, considered Washington a military general; others, such as Kyril Finn, considered him a terrorist. (TNG: "The High Ground")
Commerce arose in the United States following the revolution, and throughout the 18th century and 19th century, ocean-going "Yankee Traders" sailed the oceans in search of mercantile opportunity. (TNG: "The Last Outpost")

In 1794, army general Napoléon Bonaparte rose to power, installing himself as absolute ruler of France in 1799, declared himself Emperor of France, and subsequently dominated Europe. The British Royal Navy, led by Admiral Horatio Nelson, defeated the combined French and Spanish fleet at the Battle of Trafalgar in October 1805. Napoleon was ultimately defeated at Waterloo in 1815 due to the combined efforts of the British General Wellington, and the Prussian General Blucher. (TNG: "Hide and Q", "The Best of Both Worlds"; VOY: "The Thaw")

First World War
The destructive mechanization of World War I
Human civilization experienced major wars that involved nearly every continent on Earth during the 20th and 21st centuries. The first two such wars – the first and second World Wars – saw six million and eleven million Humans die, respectively, from the effects of despotism alone. The third resulted in 37 million such deaths, and a total of 600 million Human deaths. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses"; Star Trek: First Contact; VOY: "In the Flesh")
In "Bread and Circuses", Spock gave casualty figures for each of World Wars I, II, and III. His figures are substantially off for total casualties that records show for the first and second world wars, even when all civilians are taken out of the equation. Only by assuming he was discussing deaths from despotism alone (reasonable in the context of his statement) do the numbers appear to match both data known in 1967 and later Trek statements on WWIII deaths.
Adolf Hitler, Timestream
Adolf Hitler marches with Nazi flag
The Second World War was a conflict, in part, between the forces of fascism – epitomized by Germany's Adolf Hitler and his Nazi political party – and those who opposed such a form of government. (TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever") Initially assuming an official position of neutrality, the United States fully entered the conflict after a Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor. (TNG: "The Enemy") Hitler and his allies were defeated, but left controversy in their wake. In the 23rd century, some, such as Spock, saw the Nazis as sadistic; some, such as Kirk saw them as "brutal, perverted" and that they "had to be destroyed at a terrible cost". Still others, such as John Gill, saw them governing over the "most efficient state... Earth ever knew", and believed that some of the Nazi approaches could prove beneficial to a society. Spock agreed with Gill, at least as to efficiency: "That tiny country – beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination." (TOS: "Patterns of Force"; VOY: "The Killing Game", "The Killing Game, Part II"; ENT: "Storm Front", "Storm Front, Part II")
Multiple brush wars occurred on the Asian continent involving two great powers. (TOS: "A Private Little War")

It is possible that Kirk may have been referencing the Korean War (1950-1953) and the Vietnam War (1957-1975), which both involved the United States and the Soviet Union.
Sputnik I
Sputnik I in orbit of Earth in 1957
The 20th century also saw the rise of nuclear weaponry and the beginnings of space exploration. In 1947, the three Ferengi Quark, his brother Rom, and nephew Nog were accidentally transported back in time from the 24th century to Roswell, New Mexico, and were mistaken for Martians. After returning to their own time by using beta radiation from a nuclear explosion, the incident was passed off by the government as a weather balloon. (DS9: "Little Green Men")
The Soviet Union launched the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1 on October 4, 1957. (ENT: "Carbon Creek")

1968, the year in which a malfunctioning orbital nuclear weapon nearly detonated, was viewed by 23rd century Humans as one of the most critical years on record. Then-current Earth crises "would fill a tape bank", according to Spock. Assassinations, government coups, wars in Asia, the Communist/Capitalist conflicts, and orbiting hydrogen bombs were among the greatest problems facing Humanity at that time. (TOS: "Assignment: Earth", "A Private Little War", "The Omega Glory") Despite this, Humanity first landed two men on Earth's moon and returned them safely to Earth the following year. (VOY: "One Small Step", "Threshold"; ENT: "Carbon Creek")

TOS: "Assignment: Earth" predicted that in 1968 a government coup would take place in an Asian country. In the real 1968, a coup did occur in Asia, in the country of Iraq. That episode – broadcast in March of 1968 – also predicted an "important" assassination for 1968. Dr. Martin Luther King was killed in April; Robert Kennedy in June. The Watergate break-in and cover-up of the 1970s was also mentioned by Q as being an event which gave Human history "character". (DS9: "Q-Less")
Its our history, plus plot intervention.

Therefore, its a fictional sci fi future, set in our world, interrupted only by things that developed from the shows own trajectory. That's why it split into a parallel world. It wasn't written that way to begin with.

Its almost a text book example of the some of the defining characteristics of science fiction - ie a projected fictionalised future, with a real world basis.


This is lifted lock, stock, and barrel from Memory Alpha, without attribution.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Human_history

Normal procedure on this board is to give a snippet (brief!), and then cite the source.

Please do so from now on.

Thanks.
 
The fact its fictional, doesn't mean anything. The distinction without merit is your idea that something being fictional, has any bearing on its veracity, other than to denote that some of it is a construct.

Oh contraire! It being fictional makes it NOT our timeline or world. It makes no difference if it has Dragons or Organians, Death Stars or V'Gers, Wizards or Q's. It's all fictional. It makes no difference whatsoever as to how closely the authors try to make it resemble our Earth and our history. No difference at all.

That doesn't mean there are not distinctions to be made between different literary genres. But in terms of the question of whether or not it is OUR timeline, these distinctions make no difference. Even a fictional version of Earth made to closely resemble ours is nevertheless fictional, and thus NOT our world.

Not really. Thats a weak argument. The minute you construct part of the story, you are "not of our world"?

I guessed based on a true story doesnt exist?

I guess semi fiction doesnt exist?

I guess you missed the part where the whole series is based TOS, which is based on our world, and not on some imaginary version of it.

I guess the weather forecast is fictional?

Fact is, its quite understandable to see pre 60s star trek history as "our world", and frankly even fiction makes distinctions based on if its based on earth and earth history.

The star trek timeline pre 60s was our world and our timeline, so the false distinction is yours this time.

Also it categorically make a difference if its fantasy based in another world, or a vision of the future based in our world. Or even a historical novel with character constructs. Its all different categories.

Was Malcolm x suddenly the same as genre as Game of Thrones to you, because they used bridge characters in the film? Come on man.

In short, even after all these series, human history is taught in SF academy, and ...

The Greek civilization arose approximately 2700 BC. Much of Earth's culture and philosophy began with the Greeks. To Captain James T. Kirk in the 23rd century, the Greek civilization was seen as the beginnings of a "Golden Age". (TOS: "Who Mourns for Adonais?")

Another ancient civilization, the Egyptians, constructed large pyramids as part of their accomplishments. Their Great Pyramid of Giza was the largest of the pyramids built in Egypt and was finished around 2600 BC. Its construction was observed by time-traveling anthropologists beginning in 2769. (ENT: "Cold Front")

Some battles that took place in ancient Human history were remembered into the 24th century. One such battle was a small band of Spartans led by King Leonidas, who defended a mountain pass against the vast Persian army at the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC. The Spartans put up a "heroic struggle" (according to Julian Bashir), until they were wiped out. (DS9: "What You Leave Behind")

Roman carriage, Timestream
A Roman chariot
The Roman Empire – arising in the first century BC and lasting in one form or another until the 15th century – was the first major global power in Human history. The Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar (63 BC – 14 AD) was viewed by many, including Khan, as having achieved great things for the Empire during his reign. (TOS: "Space Seed") The Roman Empire was seen by Jean-Luc Picard to have begun its fall as a civilization in the 5th century when the Visigoths attacked the capital city of Rome during the reign of the Emperor Honorious. (TNG: "The Best of Both Worlds")
Following on the heels of Rome was a popular religion, Christianity, with a basic philosophy of, as Spock summarized it, "total love and total brotherhood". It arose in the ancient world beginning in the 1st century and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. The religion considered Christ to be the son of God. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses")

Pre-warp history Edit
A member of Species 8472 said of Humans in 2375, "At first glance they're so primitive. Genetic impurities, no telepathy, violent. And yet they've created so many beautiful ways to convey their ideas: literature, art, music." (VOY: "In the Flesh") Unfortunately, Human history before the discovery of the warp drive is, in many ways, not defined by literature, art, and music but by military conflicts, plague, and inhumanity.
Joust, Timestream
A knight jousting on horseback
The trend begins with a series of related military campaigns – fought for causes both religious and political – that took place during the 11th century through the 13th century. These were known as the Crusades. These wars gave Human history "character" according to Q. (DS9: "Q-Less")
Half of Europe was killed by the bubonic plague circa 1334. Flint saw it that summer from Constantinople: "... It marched through the streets, the sewers. It left the city by ox cart, by sea, to kill half of Europe. The rats, rustling and squealing in the night as they, too, died." (TOS: "Requiem for Methuselah")

Beginning in 1478, the Spanish Inquisition was founded in Spain to suppress heresies against the Christian religion. The Inquisition was regarded by Humans as a particularly brutal institution into at least the 24th century, and was regarded by Q as another historical event that provided character to Humanity and kept it from being boring. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home; DS9: "Q-Less")

By 1485, Earth had recovered from plague and war to achieve a technological level equivalent to a "B" rating on the industrial scale used by 23rd century Starfleet. (TOS: "Spock's Brain")

Another inquisition in the name of Christianity took place during the 17th century. The scientist Galileo Galilei publicly supported the idea that the Earth was not the center of the universe. He was tried and convicted of heresy in 1633 by an inquisition as a result, and many of his books were burned. (DS9: "In the Hands of the Prophets")

The 17th century also saw the start of many uprisings and revolutions against oppressive governments and empires. The Pueblo Revolt in 1680 was one. As described by Deanna Troi and Anthwara in 2370:

Troi: "everal Indian tribes rose up against their Spanish overlords and drove them out of what is now called New Mexico."
Anthwara: "Ten years later, the Spanish returned to reconquer the area. They were ... brutal ... I would use the word savage. They killed our people by the hundreds ... maimed thousands more."
According to Anthwara, one of the Spaniards was an ancestor of Picard's named Javier Maribona-Picard. (TNG: "Journey's End")
George Washington
A sketch of George Washington
Another took place in the late 18th century, when George Washington helped win a war for his colonies' independence from Great Britain. This was generally known as the American Revolution and resulted in the establishment of the United States of America. In 2366 some, such as Beverly Crusher, considered Washington a military general; others, such as Kyril Finn, considered him a terrorist. (TNG: "The High Ground")
Commerce arose in the United States following the revolution, and throughout the 18th century and 19th century, ocean-going "Yankee Traders" sailed the oceans in search of mercantile opportunity. (TNG: "The Last Outpost")

In 1794, army general Napoléon Bonaparte rose to power, installing himself as absolute ruler of France in 1799, declared himself Emperor of France, and subsequently dominated Europe. The British Royal Navy, led by Admiral Horatio Nelson, defeated the combined French and Spanish fleet at the Battle of Trafalgar in October 1805. Napoleon was ultimately defeated at Waterloo in 1815 due to the combined efforts of the British General Wellington, and the Prussian General Blucher. (TNG: "Hide and Q", "The Best of Both Worlds"; VOY: "The Thaw")

First World War
The destructive mechanization of World War I
Human civilization experienced major wars that involved nearly every continent on Earth during the 20th and 21st centuries. The first two such wars – the first and second World Wars – saw six million and eleven million Humans die, respectively, from the effects of despotism alone. The third resulted in 37 million such deaths, and a total of 600 million Human deaths. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses"; Star Trek: First Contact; VOY: "In the Flesh")
In "Bread and Circuses", Spock gave casualty figures for each of World Wars I, II, and III. His figures are substantially off for total casualties that records show for the first and second world wars, even when all civilians are taken out of the equation. Only by assuming he was discussing deaths from despotism alone (reasonable in the context of his statement) do the numbers appear to match both data known in 1967 and later Trek statements on WWIII deaths.
Adolf Hitler, Timestream
Adolf Hitler marches with Nazi flag
The Second World War was a conflict, in part, between the forces of fascism – epitomized by Germany's Adolf Hitler and his Nazi political party – and those who opposed such a form of government. (TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever") Initially assuming an official position of neutrality, the United States fully entered the conflict after a Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor. (TNG: "The Enemy") Hitler and his allies were defeated, but left controversy in their wake. In the 23rd century, some, such as Spock, saw the Nazis as sadistic; some, such as Kirk saw them as "brutal, perverted" and that they "had to be destroyed at a terrible cost". Still others, such as John Gill, saw them governing over the "most efficient state... Earth ever knew", and believed that some of the Nazi approaches could prove beneficial to a society. Spock agreed with Gill, at least as to efficiency: "That tiny country – beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination." (TOS: "Patterns of Force"; VOY: "The Killing Game", "The Killing Game, Part II"; ENT: "Storm Front", "Storm Front, Part II")
Multiple brush wars occurred on the Asian continent involving two great powers. (TOS: "A Private Little War")

It is possible that Kirk may have been referencing the Korean War (1950-1953) and the Vietnam War (1957-1975), which both involved the United States and the Soviet Union.
Sputnik I
Sputnik I in orbit of Earth in 1957
The 20th century also saw the rise of nuclear weaponry and the beginnings of space exploration. In 1947, the three Ferengi Quark, his brother Rom, and nephew Nog were accidentally transported back in time from the 24th century to Roswell, New Mexico, and were mistaken for Martians. After returning to their own time by using beta radiation from a nuclear explosion, the incident was passed off by the government as a weather balloon. (DS9: "Little Green Men")
The Soviet Union launched the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1 on October 4, 1957. (ENT: "Carbon Creek")

1968, the year in which a malfunctioning orbital nuclear weapon nearly detonated, was viewed by 23rd century Humans as one of the most critical years on record. Then-current Earth crises "would fill a tape bank", according to Spock. Assassinations, government coups, wars in Asia, the Communist/Capitalist conflicts, and orbiting hydrogen bombs were among the greatest problems facing Humanity at that time. (TOS: "Assignment: Earth", "A Private Little War", "The Omega Glory") Despite this, Humanity first landed two men on Earth's moon and returned them safely to Earth the following year. (VOY: "One Small Step", "Threshold"; ENT: "Carbon Creek")

TOS: "Assignment: Earth" predicted that in 1968 a government coup would take place in an Asian country. In the real 1968, a coup did occur in Asia, in the country of Iraq. That episode – broadcast in March of 1968 – also predicted an "important" assassination for 1968. Dr. Martin Luther King was killed in April; Robert Kennedy in June. The Watergate break-in and cover-up of the 1970s was also mentioned by Q as being an event which gave Human history "character". (DS9: "Q-Less")The Greek civilization arose approximately 2700 BC. Much of Earth's culture and philosophy began with the Greeks. To Captain James T. Kirk in the 23rd century, the Greek civilization was seen as the beginnings of a "Golden Age". (TOS: "Who Mourns for Adonais?")

Another ancient civilization, the Egyptians, constructed large pyramids as part of their accomplishments. Their Great Pyramid of Giza was the largest of the pyramids built in Egypt and was finished around 2600 BC. Its construction was observed by time-traveling anthropologists beginning in 2769. (ENT: "Cold Front")

Some battles that took place in ancient Human history were remembered into the 24th century. One such battle was a small band of Spartans led by King Leonidas, who defended a mountain pass against the vast Persian army at the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC. The Spartans put up a "heroic struggle" (according to Julian Bashir), until they were wiped out. (DS9: "What You Leave Behind")

Roman carriage, Timestream
A Roman chariot
The Roman Empire – arising in the first century BC and lasting in one form or another until the 15th century – was the first major global power in Human history. The Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar (63 BC – 14 AD) was viewed by many, including Khan, as having achieved great things for the Empire during his reign. (TOS: "Space Seed") The Roman Empire was seen by Jean-Luc Picard to have begun its fall as a civilization in the 5th century when the Visigoths attacked the capital city of Rome during the reign of the Emperor Honorious. (TNG: "The Best of Both Worlds")
Following on the heels of Rome was a popular religion, Christianity, with a basic philosophy of, as Spock summarized it, "total love and total brotherhood". It arose in the ancient world beginning in the 1st century and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. The religion considered Christ to be the son of God. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses")

Pre-warp history Edit
A member of Species 8472 said of Humans in 2375, "At first glance they're so primitive. Genetic impurities, no telepathy, violent. And yet they've created so many beautiful ways to convey their ideas: literature, art, music." (VOY: "In the Flesh") Unfortunately, Human history before the discovery of the warp drive is, in many ways, not defined by literature, art, and music but by military conflicts, plague, and inhumanity.
Joust, Timestream
A knight jousting on horseback
The trend begins with a series of related military campaigns – fought for causes both religious and political – that took place during the 11th century through the 13th century. These were known as the Crusades. These wars gave Human history "character" according to Q. (DS9: "Q-Less")
Half of Europe was killed by the bubonic plague circa 1334. Flint saw it that summer from Constantinople: "... It marched through the streets, the sewers. It left the city by ox cart, by sea, to kill half of Europe. The rats, rustling and squealing in the night as they, too, died." (TOS: "Requiem for Methuselah")

Beginning in 1478, the Spanish Inquisition was founded in Spain to suppress heresies against the Christian religion. The Inquisition was regarded by Humans as a particularly brutal institution into at least the 24th century, and was regarded by Q as another historical event that provided character to Humanity and kept it from being boring. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home; DS9: "Q-Less")

By 1485, Earth had recovered from plague and war to achieve a technological level equivalent to a "B" rating on the industrial scale used by 23rd century Starfleet. (TOS: "Spock's Brain")

Another inquisition in the name of Christianity took place during the 17th century. The scientist Galileo Galilei publicly supported the idea that the Earth was not the center of the universe. He was tried and convicted of heresy in 1633 by an inquisition as a result, and many of his books were burned. (DS9: "In the Hands of the Prophets")

The 17th century also saw the start of many uprisings and revolutions against oppressive governments and empires. The Pueblo Revolt in 1680 was one. As described by Deanna Troi and Anthwara in 2370:

Troi: "everal Indian tribes rose up against their Spanish overlords and drove them out of what is now called New Mexico."
Anthwara: "Ten years later, the Spanish returned to reconquer the area. They were ... brutal ... I would use the word savage. They killed our people by the hundreds ... maimed thousands more."
According to Anthwara, one of the Spaniards was an ancestor of Picard's named Javier Maribona-Picard. (TNG: "Journey's End")
George Washington
A sketch of George Washington
Another took place in the late 18th century, when George Washington helped win a war for his colonies' independence from Great Britain. This was generally known as the American Revolution and resulted in the establishment of the United States of America. In 2366 some, such as Beverly Crusher, considered Washington a military general; others, such as Kyril Finn, considered him a terrorist. (TNG: "The High Ground")
Commerce arose in the United States following the revolution, and throughout the 18th century and 19th century, ocean-going "Yankee Traders" sailed the oceans in search of mercantile opportunity. (TNG: "The Last Outpost")

In 1794, army general Napoléon Bonaparte rose to power, installing himself as absolute ruler of France in 1799, declared himself Emperor of France, and subsequently dominated Europe. The British Royal Navy, led by Admiral Horatio Nelson, defeated the combined French and Spanish fleet at the Battle of Trafalgar in October 1805. Napoleon was ultimately defeated at Waterloo in 1815 due to the combined efforts of the British General Wellington, and the Prussian General Blucher. (TNG: "Hide and Q", "The Best of Both Worlds"; VOY: "The Thaw")

First World War
The destructive mechanization of World War I
Human civilization experienced major wars that involved nearly every continent on Earth during the 20th and 21st centuries. The first two such wars – the first and second World Wars – saw six million and eleven million Humans die, respectively, from the effects of despotism alone. The third resulted in 37 million such deaths, and a total of 600 million Human deaths. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses"; Star Trek: First Contact; VOY: "In the Flesh")
In "Bread and Circuses", Spock gave casualty figures for each of World Wars I, II, and III. His figures are substantially off for total casualties that records show for the first and second world wars, even when all civilians are taken out of the equation. Only by assuming he was discussing deaths from despotism alone (reasonable in the context of his statement) do the numbers appear to match both data known in 1967 and later Trek statements on WWIII deaths.
Adolf Hitler, Timestream
Adolf Hitler marches with Nazi flag
The Second World War was a conflict, in part, between the forces of fascism – epitomized by Germany's Adolf Hitler and his Nazi political party – and those who opposed such a form of government. (TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever") Initially assuming an official position of neutrality, the United States fully entered the conflict after a Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor. (TNG: "The Enemy") Hitler and his allies were defeated, but left controversy in their wake. In the 23rd century, some, such as Spock, saw the Nazis as sadistic; some, such as Kirk saw them as "brutal, perverted" and that they "had to be destroyed at a terrible cost". Still others, such as John Gill, saw them governing over the "most efficient state... Earth ever knew", and believed that some of the Nazi approaches could prove beneficial to a society. Spock agreed with Gill, at least as to efficiency: "That tiny country – beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination." (TOS: "Patterns of Force"; VOY: "The Killing Game", "The Killing Game, Part II"; ENT: "Storm Front", "Storm Front, Part II")
Multiple brush wars occurred on the Asian continent involving two great powers. (TOS: "A Private Little War")

It is possible that Kirk may have been referencing the Korean War (1950-1953) and the Vietnam War (1957-1975), which both involved the United States and the Soviet Union.
Sputnik I
Sputnik I in orbit of Earth in 1957
The 20th century also saw the rise of nuclear weaponry and the beginnings of space exploration. In 1947, the three Ferengi Quark, his brother Rom, and nephew Nog were accidentally transported back in time from the 24th century to Roswell, New Mexico, and were mistaken for Martians. After returning to their own time by using beta radiation from a nuclear explosion, the incident was passed off by the government as a weather balloon. (DS9: "Little Green Men")
The Soviet Union launched the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1 on October 4, 1957. (ENT: "Carbon Creek")

1968, the year in which a malfunctioning orbital nuclear weapon nearly detonated, was viewed by 23rd century Humans as one of the most critical years on record. Then-current Earth crises "would fill a tape bank", according to Spock. Assassinations, government coups, wars in Asia, the Communist/Capitalist conflicts, and orbiting hydrogen bombs were among the greatest problems facing Humanity at that time. (TOS: "Assignment: Earth", "A Private Little War", "The Omega Glory") Despite this, Humanity first landed two men on Earth's moon and returned them safely to Earth the following year. (VOY: "One Small Step", "Threshold"; ENT: "Carbon Creek")

TOS: "Assignment: Earth" predicted that in 1968 a government coup would take place in an Asian country. In the real 1968, a coup did occur in Asia, in the country of Iraq. That episode – broadcast in March of 1968 – also predicted an "important" assassination for 1968. Dr. Martin Luther King was killed in April; Robert Kennedy in June. The Watergate break-in and cover-up of the 1970s was also mentioned by Q as being an event which gave Human history "character". (DS9: "Q-Less")
Its our history, plus plot intervention.

Therefore, its a fictional sci fi future, set in our world, interrupted only by things that developed from the shows own trajectory. That's why it split into a parallel world. It wasn't written that way to begin with.

Its almost a text book example of the some of the defining characteristics of science fiction - ie a projected fictionalised future, with a real world basis.


This is lifted lock, stock, and barrel from Memory Alpha, without attribution.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Human_history

Normal procedure on this board is to give a snippet (brief!), and then cite the source.

Please do so from now on.

Thanks.


Apologies. I wanted to show the two histories were synonymous, but I didn't think that one through. I actually thought it was the same website, but my bad for that one.
 
So Mr. OP, perhaps you would like to tell us WHEN Star Trek moved into an alternate universe?

I agree its a debatable subject, but for me, it was when they moved their history into a alternate timeline.

The first time this happened was when the eugenics wars didnt happen in the 90s. Later on the series rewrote our history to have the computer revolution created by future tech, which is an explanatory difference. A distinction without much of a real difference, as one of the illustrious posters above likes saying.

Star trek history diverges from real world history in the eugenics war.

As for going back in time and witnessing the big bang, its not really something that effects anything, and changes nothing. Our current understanding of time, would seem to favor another universe being created with time travel anyways.

The original trek history diverges at the eugenics war, iirc.
 
Star trek history diverges from real world history in the eugenics war.
The original trek history diverges at the eugenics war, iirc.

Do you believe that Star Trek is a fictional history, in other words a history created to service a work of fiction?
 
The first time this happened was when the eugenics wars didnt happen in the 90s. Later on the series rewrote our history to have the computer revolution created by future tech, which is an explanatory difference. A distinction without much of a real difference, as one of the illustrious posters above likes saying.

If I remember correctly, these are both attributed to the Voyager two-parter "Future's End"? If so, wouldn't that be all reset when the timeline was reset and Braxton never crashed in the 1960's to begin with?
 
Star trek history diverges from real world history in the eugenics war.
The original trek history diverges at the eugenics war, iirc.

Do you believe that Star Trek is a fictional history, in other words a history created to service a work of fiction?

IIRC their history is exactly the same as our history, pre 1960. ie no demonstrable conflicts.

The whole point of this thread, is asking where those two demonstrably diverge.

So for me, that would be the eugenics war.

AFAIK thats Trek original history, the first time around, before the time travel episodes.
 
Star trek history diverges from real world history in the eugenics war.
The original trek history diverges at the eugenics war, iirc.

Do you believe that Star Trek is a fictional history, in other words a history created to service a work of fiction?

IIRC their history is exactly the same as our history, pre 1960. ie no demonstrable conflicts.

The whole point of this thread, is asking where those two demonstrably diverge.

So for me, that would be the eugenics war.

AFAIK thats Trek original history, the first time around, before the time travel episodes.

So you feel that the historical record in Star Trek is just as valid as the historical record found in encyclopedias, up till the 1990's?
 
Star trek history diverges from real world history in the eugenics war.
The original trek history diverges at the eugenics war, iirc.

Do you believe that Star Trek is a fictional history, in other words a history created to service a work of fiction?

IIRC their history is exactly the same as our history, pre 1960. ie no demonstrable conflicts.
1930. No 21st Street Mission. No Edith Keeler. No vaporized street bum.

And no movies at all with Clark Gable billed in them, much less any movie that could be characterized as "a Clark Gable movie."
 
Do you believe that Star Trek is a fictional history, in other words a history created to service a work of fiction?

IIRC their history is exactly the same as our history, pre 1960. ie no demonstrable conflicts.

The whole point of this thread, is asking where those two demonstrably diverge.

So for me, that would be the eugenics war.

AFAIK thats Trek original history, the first time around, before the time travel episodes.

So you feel that the historical record in Star Trek is just as valid as the historical record found in encyclopedias, up till the 1990's?

I feel it has been taken out of an encyclopaedia, up until the 1960's.

Unless you can demonstrate it's demonstrably been altered for fiction, then its point by point, human history.

I'm not exactly sure where validity comes into an argument about a photocopy.

An encyclopaedia isn't necessarily valid, depending on the one being used. They are not first hand, primary evidence, they are secondary modern evidence. Yes, Star Trek is fiction, but its based on a universe of historical fact, up until the year it was created.

Star Trek history might as well be coming out of the Encyclopædia Britannica up until 1960, unless I've missed something.
 
Star trek history diverges from real world history in the eugenics war.
The original trek history diverges at the eugenics war, iirc.

Do you believe that Star Trek is a fictional history, in other words a history created to service a work of fiction?

IIRC their history is exactly the same as our history, pre 1960. ie no demonstrable conflicts.

The whole point of this thread, is asking where those two demonstrably diverge.

So for me, that would be the eugenics war.

AFAIK thats Trek original history, the first time around, before the time travel episodes.
Yeah, all those nuclear bombs NASA launched in the 60s were a constant talking point in college in the 80's. My roommate just never shut up about them. Then, there was Women's History and that whole thing about Edith Keeler and her Soup Kitchens, Christ, the prof went on endlessly about her.

The whole point of this thread, is asking where those two demonstrably diverge.
It's all fiction. There is no either/or, there's no place reality and Trek diverge. Trek's Civil War could have been won by Lincoln enlisting Capt Nemo to build a fleet of Nautiluses to crush the Confederate sea defenses and allow an easy sea born invasion planned by Lincoln and Solar Pons. All it needs is for the writers to do so.
 
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Do you believe that Star Trek is a fictional history, in other words a history created to service a work of fiction?

IIRC their history is exactly the same as our history, pre 1960. ie no demonstrable conflicts.
1930. No 21st Street Mission. No Edith Keeler. No vaporized street bum.

And no movies at all with Clark Gable billed in them, much less any movie that could be characterized as "a Clark Gable movie."

Well the 21st street mission et al is just part of a fictional narrative, onto a world that is supposedly realistically depicted.

The lack of a Clark Gable movie is far more damning, as its a primary assertion about this timeline.

In 1930, after his impressive appearance as the seething and desperate character Killer Mears in the Los Angeles stage production of The Last Mile, Gable was offered a contract with MGM. His first role in a sound picture was as the unshaven villain in a low-budget William Boyd western called The Painted Desert (1931). He received a lot of fan mail as a result of his powerful voice and appearance; the studio took notice.

So Clark Gable blew up in the early 30s.

They arrive in New York City, circa 1930.

Circa means around 1930.

Street missions existed in the 1930s too.

Edith Keeler has chimes with Dorothy Day too, although the latter didn't die in a crash or change the outcome of WW2.

Now, IIRC without their intervention, Edith Keeler still dies.

So once again, we are watching a depiction of 30s history, through the lens of star trek. Obviously this is a fictionalised account, just like any other period drama, but its still evidence of sorts of the time period, because its based on a factual established foundation, and not a fabricated, fantasy one.
 
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It's all fiction. There is no either/or, there's no place reality and Trek diverge. Trek's Civil War could have been won by Lincoln enlisting Capt Nemo to build a fleet of Nautiluses to crush the Confederate sea defenses and allow an easy sea born invasion planned by Lincoln and Solar Pons. All it needs is for the writers to do so.

You mean there was no Iron Boots Riker and Q during the Civil War? :eek:
 
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