when bad guys turn good?

[Sindatur]

Aeryn Sun from Farscape comes immediately to mind. Though to be fair she was never really a villain. Scorpius might count as well, but I don't know if I'd ever really call him a hero.

And let's not forget Crais who did truly go from Bad to Good

 

[DevilEyes]

A Trek board and nobody's mentioned Q yet? Or Kor, Kang or Koloth...?

But they never actually changed, did they? Just the protagonists' attitude towards them did.

hmmm... your definition of "good" for some of the characters is a bit too broad. I'm not sure the operative changed to "good," so much as he just became disillusioned with who he was supporting.

I was under the impression that we're talking about 'baddie' and 'goodie' as in "villain" and "good guy". The Operative is certainly the antagonist for most of the movie until he learns the truth, sees the light and decides to fight against those he used to support. That's also probably the most likely way people in real life go from what is "bad guy" from our perspective, to what is a "good guy" from our perspective - changing their views and becoming disillusioned with what they used to support.

And Garak? He seemed to do the stuff he did for Cardassia, and not out of any moral conviction.

I'm not sure what your mean. Garak was a member of the secret police organization who tortured people and performed assassinations, that means he started off as a very bad guy. I surely hope that his views in What You Leave Behind of what is good for Cardassia didn't imply rebuilding the Obsidian Order or something like that. If it did, then I'd agree that he never changed, it's just that the protagonists saw him as one of the good guys since he was on their side. (Maybe I'm just influenced by A Stitch In Time in thinking that Garak did change his views from the time of his Obsidian Order days to the time when he was about to participate in the rebuilding of Cardassia.)

Depending perhaps on whether you define "baddie" and "goodie" by writer intent or by deductive reasoning, you could through the prism of philanthropy view either Battlestar Galactica's Athena or the same show's Boomer as having made the transition.

Not to mention Caprica Six, and rebel Cylons as a group.

Boomer wasn't exactly a baddie in the beginning, and she went good then bad again then whatever the hell the writers wanted to do with her at the time.

Juliet on Lost started as a baddie and turn into a goodie (though it seems she was never that bad to begin with).

Spoiler: Battlestar.

I disagree about the rebel cylons; they were following their own agenda, which imo just happened to not be mutually exclusive with the short-term interests of the colonials. Cap Six's defection, if it was that, seems to have had more to do with her relationship with Baltar than any supposed repudiation of the cylon military campaign. As for Boomer, it's open to debate as to whether she lifts a finger against the colonials after season one. I'm in the "No" camp on that issue.

Spoiler: BSG

Caprica Six felt guilty for her role in the genocide and by Downloaded she believed it was a sin against God, and she and Boomer decided to change the Cylon society and make them stop trying to destroy humans. She clearly became a good guy.

The rebel Cylons completely abandoned any attempts at enslaving or destroying humans, and ended up living together with the humans on Earth. That clearly moved them from the 'villains' category, whatever the reasons for that were.

 

[clint g]

A Trek board and nobody's mentioned Q yet? Or Kor, Kang or Koloth...?

But they never actually changed, did they? Just the protagonists' attitude towards them did.

I would say Q sort of changed. At first he definitely came off as a bad guy. Over time his disgust with humans turned into something closer to a master with his favorite pet.

Anyways, I think a more interesting question is good guys who turn into bad guys. That's always a nice, tragic tale

 

[DevilEyes]

Anyways, I think a more interesting question is good guys who turn into bad guys. That's always a nice, tragic tale

I can think of many examples, but most of them end up redeeming themselves and going back to being good guys. It's far more difficult to think of good guys who turn into bad guys and remain that way.

These television tropes pages might be of interest:

Heel Face Turn

Face Heel Turn

And there's even a trope for Heel Face Revolving Door.

 

[sonak]

A Trek board and nobody's mentioned Q yet? Or Kor, Kang or Koloth...?

But they never actually changed, did they? Just the protagonists' attitude towards them did.

hmmm... your definition of "good" for some of the characters is a bit too broad. I'm not sure the operative changed to "good," so much as he just became disillusioned with who he was supporting.

I was under the impression that we're talking about 'baddie' and 'goodie' as in "villain" and "good guy". The Operative is certainly the antagonist for most of the movie until he learns the truth, sees the light and decides to fight against those he used to support. That's also probably the most likely way people in real life go from what is "bad guy" from our perspective, to what is a "good guy" from our perspective - changing their views and becoming disillusioned with what they used to support.

I'm not sure what your mean. Garak was a member of the secret police organization who tortured people and performed assassinations, that means he started off as a very bad guy. I surely hope that his views in What You Leave Behind of what is good for Cardassia didn't imply rebuilding the Obsidian Order or something like that. If it did, then I'd agree that he never changed, it's just that the protagonists saw him as one of the good guys since he was on their side. (Maybe I'm just influenced by A Stitch In Time in thinking that Garak did change his views from the time of his Obsidian Order days to the time when he was about to participate in the rebuilding of Cardassia.)

Not to mention Caprica Six, and rebel Cylons as a group.

Boomer wasn't exactly a baddie in the beginning, and she went good then bad again then whatever the hell the writers wanted to do with her at the time.

Juliet on Lost started as a baddie and turn into a goodie (though it seems she was never that bad to begin with).

Spoiler: Battlestar.

I disagree about the rebel cylons; they were following their own agenda, which imo just happened to not be mutually exclusive with the short-term interests of the colonials. Cap Six's defection, if it was that, seems to have had more to do with her relationship with Baltar than any supposed repudiation of the cylon military campaign. As for Boomer, it's open to debate as to whether she lifts a finger against the colonials after season one. I'm in the "No" camp on that issue.

Spoiler: BSG

Caprica Six felt guilty for her role in the genocide and by Downloaded she believed it was a sin against God, and she and Boomer decided to change the Cylon society and make them stop trying to destroy humans. She clearly became a good guy.

The rebel Cylons completely abandoned any attempts at enslaving or destroying humans, and ended up living together with the humans on Earth. That clearly moved them from the 'villains' category, whatever the reasons for that were.

I didn't read "a stitch in time," so I can't comment on that aspect, but I just figured him as an ally of convenience rather than a "good guy." But then he didn't really switch sides either, since he was never at any point a villain by the time of the beginning of DS9. His Obsidian Order days were already well behind him.

And again, I don't get the impression that the operative was about to become a good guy, more like he was disillusioned about who he was working for. He seemed tired and defeated, not on the path to redemption. Just my opinions.

 

[Starkers]

A Trek board and nobody's mentioned Q yet? Or Kor, Kang or Koloth...?

Elsewhere, G'Kar, who's the villain in the B5 pilot

Plus Damar from a Trek standpoint.

 

[DonIago]

Forget Juliet, I'll go with Ben from Lost.

 

[Mistral]

A Trek board and nobody's mentioned Q yet? Or Kor, Kang or Koloth...?

Elsewhere, G'Kar, who's the villain in the B5 pilot

I would have said Londo. And maybe Todd on Stargate Atlantis.

 

[Yevetha]

Londo Mollari, Quinlan Vos, Ulic Qel Droma, Kam Solusar, Sajar from Swtor, Galen Marek, Zekk, Visas Marr, Kira Carsen.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Wow, no one said Darth Vader yet? Unless "with some success" means they have to live for a long time afterwards?

The problem there is that you have to include Anakin as part of Vader's whole arc, and that was a bit of a botch, wasn't it? To me "successful" lies in how well the whole arc was handled, writing-wise, not how long the villain survives after turning to heroism. However, The Clone Wars is repairing things, so on the assumption they succeed, I'll second your vote.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Londo flips back and forth every other episode...

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's not the only thing he flips.

 

[WillsBabe]

Faith, if she hasn't already been mentioned. I enjoy her journey from the light to dark and back again.

 

[Yevetha]

Londo flips back and forth every other episode...

But at the end he ends up as a good guy.

 

[DevilEyes]

Forget Juliet, I'll go with Ben from Lost.

If he can be said to have become a good guy.

 

[Set Harth]

It's not the only thing he flips.

Real estate speculator?

 

[Yevetha]

Romney?

 

[DonIago]

Forget Juliet, I'll go with Ben from Lost.

If he can be said to have become a good guy.

I would say he did by "The End". He at least became self-aware enough to regret some of his prior decisions, and to realize that he still needed to work on himself.

 

[Kirkman1987]

Apollo Creed. I guess Rocky III isn't sci-fi, but IV did have a talking robot if that's any consolation.

 

[sonak]

Apollo Creed. I guess Rocky III isn't sci-fi, but IV did have a talking robot if that's any consolation.

mmm. so did Saved by the Bell. I miss Kevin.