What's with conservative Trekkies?

[Nerys Ghemor]

Nor is bigotry part and parcel with the conservative ideology. Being of a right-wing ideology does not mean I want to dance around with a sheet on my head and burn crosses on people's lawn OR even that I must harbor some pernicious, subconscious desire to do so.

That you would make such an assumption I find quite offensive and, I must say, intolerant.

First of all, I tolerate everybody as long as they don't interfere with anybody else. Second of all, I made no assumptions: Bigotry has been and is associated with the Right Wing ideology; that's a fact of life. If you and your family are an exception to that, then that's very good indeed. But it doesn't change the nature of that ideology.

And I can point out actual examples of leftist regimes that have exhibited bigotry as well. Sure, it was targeted at different groups, but it's still bigotry nonetheless. The Soviet Union, Cuba, Vietnam, China, and others have all executed people for differing political ideologies as well as for holding religious beliefs and a number of other such "crimes." Should I perhaps paint all liberals responsible for these crimes and claim that those who would not endorse them MUST be the exception to the rule, all while providing no reliable backup to that claim whatsoever?

Somehow I suspect you'd resent that if I did.

But that's exactly what you're doing to conservatives as a group--again, I suspect, out of a desire not to actually have to think about the fact that there might be validity to an opposing viewpoint.

 

[Captain X]

RJDiogenes, you just lost some respect from me (not that I suspect it matters).

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I enjoy 'The Shield,' yet I don't support murder, robbery, police corruption, or gang wars.

Yeah, but the show doesn't support that. If anything it speaks against it. The shows message is showing how living a life like Vic's will screw you over.

I didn't say that 'The Shield' portrayed those as good qualities. I simply said they were features of the show that I don't support in real life, and that I can still enjoy it despite those things.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Nor is bigotry part and parcel with the conservative ideology. Being of a right-wing ideology does not mean I want to dance around with a sheet on my head and burn crosses on people's lawn OR even that I must harbor some pernicious, subconscious desire to do so.

That you would make such an assumption I find quite offensive and, I must say, intolerant.

First of all, I tolerate everybody as long as they don't interfere with anybody else. Second of all, I made no assumptions: Bigotry has been and is associated with the Right Wing ideology; that's a fact of life. If you and your family are an exception to that, then that's very good indeed. But it doesn't change the nature of that ideology.

And I can point out actual examples of leftist regimes that have exhibited bigotry as well. Sure, it was targeted at different groups, but it's still bigotry nonetheless. The Soviet Union, Cuba, Vietnam, China, and others have all executed people for differing political ideologies as well as for holding religious beliefs and a number of other such "crimes." Should I perhaps paint all liberals responsible for these crimes and claim that those who would not endorse them MUST be the exception to the rule, all while providing no reliable backup to that claim whatsoever?

Somehow I suspect you'd resent that if I did.

Not at all. But we're not wondering why Left Wingers would watch a Right Wing show, we're wondering why Right Wingers would watch a Left Wing show.

But that's exactly what you're doing to conservatives as a group--again, I suspect, out of a desire not to actually have to think about the fact that there might be validity to an opposing viewpoint.

You suspect wrongly. The reason I'm anti-political is that I believe in Rationalism.

RJDiogenes, you just lost some respect from me (not that I suspect it matters).

I'm sorry to hear that, but I don't see why.

 

[Captain X]

Because while you say you support rationalism, you're being very irrational by stating a gross generalization of extremists as a factual representation of the majority of a group of people. In case you didn't notice, I can be quite conservative myself on some issues, yet there I was, arguing for same-sex marriage. I'm also a big proponent of women's rights, and just equality in general. But I'm also all for putting controls on government and limiting what it can do - a conservative ideal. According to the logic you've displayed here, that would somehow make me a bigot despite everything else about me that shows quite the opposite.

 

[RyanKCR]

First of all, I tolerate everybody as long as they don't interfere with anybody else. Second of all, I made no assumptions: Bigotry has been and is associated with the Right Wing ideology; that's a fact of life. If you and your family are an exception to that, then that's very good indeed. But it doesn't change the nature of that ideology.

Actually that is not an exception to typical conservative families. I've seen more bigotry and hatred come from the left field.

As for me, I found Star Trek via TMP. Also, years later I've discovered that TMP (especially the SLV) is an allagory of a person searching and discoving God in the Christian sense.

I'm conservative and I love the presentation of technology and how we interacte with it in the first six movies.

 

[Amaris]

First of all, I tolerate everybody as long as they don't interfere with anybody else. Second of all, I made no assumptions: Bigotry has been and is associated with the Right Wing ideology; that's a fact of life. If you and your family are an exception to that, then that's very good indeed. But it doesn't change the nature of that ideology.

Actually that is not an exception to typical conservative families. I've seen more bigotry and hatred come from the left field.

As for me, I found Star Trek via TMP. Also, years later I've discovered that TMP (especially the SLV) is an allagory of a person searching and discoving God in the Christian sense.

I'm conservative and I love the presentation of technology and how we interacte with it in the first six movies.

Well, to add to that, I'm more liberal than moderate, and I am a huge TOS and DS9 fan, two shows that seem to cater a little more to religious and conservative values.

J.

 

[FordSVT]

"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."

Yeah, when I think of TLS, I think "eternal rebel".

Jokes aside, part of the problem we have around here is that everyone's definition of "Liberal", "Conservative", "Right" and "Left" is skewed by individual perspective. Some people believe they are moderate when in fact most would consider them extremist, and vice versa. Some people are hard-core-right-wing-follow-the-Religious-Right-GOP and think that anyone who falls outside their definition of "Conservative" is a left-wing hippie. And the opposite too. And then people who don't live in the US tend to find many Americans to be right/center-right even if some of them would label themselves liberal.

So when you ask "Why are so many conservatives Trekkies?", it's an understandable line of thought, but only if you narrow conservative ideology down to a fine margin and pretend they're all Jerry Falwell wannabes.

I know a guy who's basically a left-wing anarchist who thinks society would be better off breaking down and regressing to a primal state of being. I don't think he likes Trek, but if he did I certainly wouldn't lump all lefties in with his ilk and wonder why they liked Trek.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Because while you say you support rationalism, you're being very irrational by stating a gross generalization of extremists as a factual representation of the majority of a group of people. In case you didn't notice, I can be quite conservative myself on some issues, yet there I was, arguing for same-sex marriage. I'm also a big proponent of women's rights, and just equality in general. But I'm also all for putting controls on government and limiting what it can do - a conservative ideal. According to the logic you've displayed here, that would somehow make me a bigot despite everything else about me that shows quite the opposite.

Nope, I would never say that you're a bigot. However, it's a simple fact that racism and religious fanaticism and such are closely associated with the Right Wing ideology. In the 60s, these are the people who supported segregation and opposed Civil Rights. The Kirk-Uhura kiss on Star Trek was pulled off the air in Right Wing areas of the country. More recently, we've seen racist sloganeering from the McCain supporters, and McCain getting booed when he opposed them. You mention Gay Marriage and Women's Rights, so you know that it's typical for the Right Wing to oppose these things. On TrekBBS, I (and, I'm sure, you) have seen Right Wingers mocking the plurality and pacifism of Trek, as well as the Atheism and Humanism of Gene Roddenberry. Asking why people like that are Trekkies is a valid question. And you've given one valid answer-- you don't agree with everything associated with the Right Wing ideology.

 

[RJDiogenes]

First of all, I tolerate everybody as long as they don't interfere with anybody else. Second of all, I made no assumptions: Bigotry has been and is associated with the Right Wing ideology; that's a fact of life. If you and your family are an exception to that, then that's very good indeed. But it doesn't change the nature of that ideology.

Actually that is not an exception to typical conservative families. I've seen more bigotry and hatred come from the left field.

Okay, you really lost me on that one.

 

[FordSVT]

^Ryan thinks everyone on this board is a big meanie because we think he's a sheltered twit, ergo the left is a vile and racist, hateful lot. Vile and hateful maybe, but not racist.

I'm not saying there aren't racist liberals, of course there are, but anyone who thinks that racism and bigotry has a historically smaller spot under the Republican tent than the Democratic one in the past 40-50 years is an idiot.

 

[Captain X]

Because while you say you support rationalism, you're being very irrational by stating a gross generalization of extremists as a factual representation of the majority of a group of people. In case you didn't notice, I can be quite conservative myself on some issues, yet there I was, arguing for same-sex marriage. I'm also a big proponent of women's rights, and just equality in general. But I'm also all for putting controls on government and limiting what it can do - a conservative ideal. According to the logic you've displayed here, that would somehow make me a bigot despite everything else about me that shows quite the opposite.

Nope, I would never say that you're a bigot. However, it's a simple fact that racism and religious fanaticism and such are closely associated with the Right Wing ideology. In the 60s, these are the people who supported segregation and opposed Civil Rights. The Kirk-Uhura kiss on Star Trek was pulled off the air in Right Wing areas of the country. More recently, we've seen racist sloganeering from the McCain supporters, and McCain getting booed when he opposed them. You mention Gay Marriage and Women's Rights, so you know that it's typical for the Right Wing to oppose these things. On TrekBBS, I (and, I'm sure, you) have seen Right Wingers mocking the plurality and pacifism of Trek, as well as the Atheism and Humanism of Gene Roddenberry. Asking why people like that are Trekkies is a valid question. And you've given one valid answer-- you don't agree with everything associated with the Right Wing ideology.

We also recently saw liberals come out to vote for Obama, while at the same time voting down same-sex marriage. Obama himself wants to limit it to "civil unions". Tolerance and/or bigotry has nothing to do with political ideology, it has to do with how superior one views themselves to be and the criteria they use to determine that view.

 

[casey]

I don't believe that we can take the political beliefs of today and apply them to something that is supposed to be set 300 years in the future. Yes it is impossible to deny that Star Trek grew out of the progressive ideals of GR--I won't deny that. But I don't think we can take the political notions of right, left, conservative, liberal and apply them to the Star Trek universe.

I believe that when it comes to our own political beliefs we look for ourselves in fiction. And we find ourselves. Living in the most conservative county in the US, I often hear people say "Jesus would be a republican because he believes X, Y, and Z." To which I hear my liberal--yet still religious--friends respond, "No, Jesus would be a liberal because he believed A, B, and C." But the point is, we CANNOT apply the political ideologies of 2008 to someone who lived and taught 2000 years ago, and similarly I don't think we can apply them to how people might live in 300 years, when the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force force for humanity.

Additionally I don't believe that what we see in Trek would be representative of the average population. Medicine, science, tehcnology, education, etc. all appear to be socialized because we are looking at Starfleet. We know what the beliefs of an average starfleet officer are, but we have know idea about the general public.

Finally, I believe that this thread illustrates something else: no one agrees AT ALL what it means to be a conservative or liberal. Some equate conservatism with Bush, others with the religious right, other with Goldwater, others with Jefferson. So we can sit and argue and take offense and make accusation about some reified notion of conservatism that frankly does not exist, and likewise with notions of liberalism.

So I think it is all ridiculous. But then I might feel differently if I considered myself either liberal or conservative. But I can see how a conservative would take the tone of much of this as offensive and growing out of elitism, but I digress.

Carry on. . .

 

[Guartho]

I often hear people say "Jesus would be a republican because he believes X, Y, and Z." To which I hear my liberal--yet still religious--friends respond, "No, Jesus would be a liberal because he believed A, B, and C."

I have no idea what it's going to be like when Jesus comes back, but I am confident in promising that he's not going to join a political party!

 

[trekkiedane]

^He'll be so mad at us for killing everyone of the true faith…

 

[Mr. B]

I mean Roddenberry was pretty much a miscegenating, atheist, commie at least by the time of TNG. Trek is pretty much all about progressive politics, with its on again, off again currency, socialized medicine, shunning of material gain, and rehab colonies. I know Enterprise was more "Bush Era" in its phylosophy, but it didn't really work out, possibly for those reasons.

First, to suggest that one must share the political and religious views of the "artist" to appreciate the art is absurd. As for conservative politics which favor personal responsibility over socialism, those are rendered largely irrelevant in Star Trek because there is NO SCARCITY.

 

[B.J.]

I'm more right-wing leaning than the majority of the board (that I know of), and I like Trek for its optimistic view of the future, exploring the galaxy, discovering the unknown, and meeting new life & new civilizations. Who wouldn't appreciate that? There's a reason that there are quite a few fans among NASA engineers.

And I'm also kinda boggled that most here are left-wing leaning. Most of the Trek fans I know are engineers (like me), and they're almost exclusively right-wing leaning in their views. IMO, the reason for the skewing towards the left here as opposed to the general population is the younger average demographic. (In other words, there aren't as many older (35+) people represented here.)

 

[Marc]

To have a little fun with this...here's the difference between the way people react to offensive statements from the left and from the right...

Let's say a conservative person walks in and drops a great big pile of poo in the middle of the table. The reaction is immediate: "That's crap and it stinks! Get it out of here!" That person is rightly castigated and made to atone for the mess.

Let's say a liberal person walks in and drops a great big pile of poo in the middle of the table. Somebody tries to criticize them. But the liberal person snaps back: "If you criticize this, than you're anti-manure and you want to destroy the environment!" And everybody gives a great big round of applause to the liberal and the person who objected suddenly becomes the bad guy.

The trouble is, both have been equally disrespectful and offensive, and one might say, intolerant of others' olfactory nerves...but only one actually gets called on it, and in the second case, the person who spoke out against it is the one who gets in trouble!

I think your analogy (no pun intended) is flawed and reliant on a cliched stereotype.

I can't recall any liberals I know presenting such an attitude and if you go by some the posters in the TNZ (and I'm talking the liberal ones) the person who dumped the steamer is likely to wind up with their face planted in it.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^Ryan thinks everyone on this board is a big meanie because we think he's a sheltered twit, ergo the left is a vile and racist, hateful lot. Vile and hateful maybe, but not racist.

I'm not saying there aren't racist liberals, of course there are, but anyone who thinks that racism and bigotry has a historically smaller spot under the Republican tent than the Democratic one in the past 40-50 years is an idiot.

Please, no name calling. Let's keep this Thread civil.

We also recently saw liberals come out to vote for Obama, while at the same time voting down same-sex marriage. Obama himself wants to limit it to "civil unions". Tolerance and/or bigotry has nothing to do with political ideology, it has to do with how superior one views themselves to be and the criteria they use to determine that view.

There's truth in that. Nevertheless, there are specific beliefs that define these two ideologies-- that's what makes them ideologies-- and the Right Wing ideology is more at odds with the worldview presented in Star Trek.

 

[DanCPA]

and the Right Wing ideology is more at odds with the worldview presented in Star Trek.

strong military
building our empire
not sharing our tech

don't be so sure