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What's the point of Aztec-ing on the hull?

They didn't replace every tile on the shuttle after each reentry, sure they inspected and replaced as needed.

As for the ablative, why not have it? It's not like weight/mass is a problem in trek ships, having another 6 inches of armour for the just in case shields go down or inoperable or in a situation where you can't use them.

The refit took alot of punishment in Twok even a torpedo. And still able to move/fight with its shields down.and in the nebula where shields didn't function.
 
As for the ablative, why not have it? It's not like weight/mass is a problem in trek ships, having another 6 inches of armour for the just in case shields go down or inoperable or in a situation where you can't use them.

Some kind of armor could be good, yes, but not necessarily ablative armor (i.e. armor designed to carry energy away from the ship by vaporizing/disintegrating). For high-velocity physical projectiles, a Whipple shield -- a thin outer shell with vacuum or low-density material between it and the main hull -- would be the best defense. For lasers or radiation weapons, if I'm reading Atomic Rockets correctly, it seems you want something that would resist ablation as much as possible so little material would be lost before the ship could move and shift the impact point of the beam to a different part of the armor.

In general, it seems to me that an ablative layer could be useful in some contexts, e.g. as the "fill" inside a Whipple shield, but it's not some miracle armor that could do the whole thing by itself. It's more a complement to other layers of shielding, like how a car has crumple zones front and back but also has a rigid crumple-resistant frame around the occupants. If it were all crumple zones, that would be worse than nothing.
 
Whipple shield wouldn't work.
There's no "projectile" just phasers. And large explosions with torpedoes.
For phasers or any directed energy weapons, you'd want to difract or resist
I guess you could cover the hull in 2 meter thick tungsten or lead.
Or like a tholian have a diamond/crystal hull.
Ablative armour would still work as long as you have alot of layers. Plus ships are moving targets (Except for discovery and enterprise:p)
 
Whipple shield wouldn't work.
There's no "projectile" just phasers. And large explosions with torpedoes.

As I said, it would work against projectiles. There are other threats in the universe besides combat, such as meteoroids. And just because Trek writers tend to be lazy enough to routinely fall back on ray guns as the default weapon, that doesn't mean it's impossible that some civilizations would still employ kinetic projectiles, as kinetic energy can be just as destructive as any other form of energy. Just because the show writers' imaginations are limited doesn't mean ours have to be. (My very first published work of Trek fiction, SCE: Aftermath, posited just such an antagonist, a civilization that used weapons and defenses modeled on the ones used in Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda, which took a hard-SF approach to space combat.)

Also, you missed the point that it's not about choosing one exclusive option. What you want is several different kinds of shielding at the same time, since each one provides a different kind of protection. A Whipple shield would naturally be on top of whatever other armor layers you have. The whole point is that it's separated by vacuum from the body of the ship, so that a projectile vaporizes from impact with it (as any sufficiently high-velocity object would) and the vacuum keeps the heat and shock from being transmitted to the ship. So it adds very little mass to whatever other armor you've got underneath it, and thus there's little cost to adding it on top.


I guess you could cover the hull in 2 meter thick tungsten or lead.

That would be an incredibly bad idea for several reasons. Dense physical armor around a ship would diminish its ability to shed waste heat, limit its maneuverability and acceeleration, and actually pose a serious risk of irradiating the crew from secondary particle cascades in the armor material if it were struck by a high-energy beam or kinetic weapon. (Which is why the "Batmobile armor" in Voyager: "Endgame" is so monumentally stupid.)


Or like a tholian have a diamond/crystal hull.

Yes, the Atomic Rockets page does say that armor made of some form of carbon such as synthetic diamond would be good against energy weapons because of its high vaporization energy. Which, again, is the opposite of ablative armor, something whose whole point is to vaporize.


Ablative armour would still work as long as you have alot of layers.

It's not a binary question. Yes, it works, but the point is that it wouldn't automatically work better than other kinds of armor. Just because it's a word they liked to use on the TV shows doesn't mean it's the best or only option for starship armor.


Plus ships are moving targets

Yes, I already cited exactly that as the reason you want a material that ablates as little as possible, as discussed at the Atomic Rockets page -- so that little damage is done to a specific impact point before you can move the ship to shift the impact point. So that's an argument against armor that easily ablates, not in favor of it.
 
There are other threats in the universe besides combat, such as meteoroids.
Isn't that what the Navigational Deflector Dish is for?

And just because Trek writers tend to be lazy enough to routinely fall back on ray guns as the default weapon, that doesn't mean it's impossible that some civilizations would still employ kinetic projectiles, as kinetic energy can be just as destructive as any other form of energy.
Didn't Worf show that even Make Shift Force Fields / Shields are strong enough to stop bullets in that episode "A Fistful of Datas"?

I can imagine regular Ovalid Bubble Shields that most Galactic Powers use would make anything short of "RailGuns" largely meaningless in terms of "Shield Damage".
 
Isn't that what the Navigational Deflector Dish is for?

The subject on the table is whether physical armor is worth including as a complement to the deflector systems, or a backup in case they fail. If we stipulate that it is, the next question, which we've already moved on to, is which kind of armor is best.
 
I guess you could cover the hull in 2 meter thick tungsten or lead.
Or like a tholian have a diamond/crystal hull.
The composition of the hull materials are not "normal" materials, rather very futuristic materials. Materials like "duranium" and "tritanium". Federation Class F shuttlecraft were constructed with a duranium metal shell. (TOS: "The Menagerie, Part I") Sounds very dense and strong. Tritanium was an ore known to be 21.4 times as hard as diamond. A pure vein was found on the planet Argus X prompting Kirk to report to Starfleet to send a survey mission. (TOS: "Obsession") TOS: "The Ultimate Computer" showed that full phasers against this hull material/construction plus shields (they may have not been set at high levels rather still on "simulation" low level), proved insufficient. So, assuming that phasers didn't get less powerful in the TMP era, the new TMP hull materials did a fantastic job in TWOK. But, we need to ask whether Khan used phasers at low settings to just disable the Enterprise. Later during the Enterprise-Relient duel, I assume the weapons were at full charge (or at least as high as they could be without warp drives which were shot-to-pieces on both ships), but the actual physical damage didn't appear any bigger than in Khan's first shots (while his warp drive was working perfectly). Come to think about it, do we ever see the TMP+ Enterprise ever fire its phasers with its warp engines operating normally?
 
@Nightfall to-Ennien, your metallurgy comment is where my brain always went. It's not just breaking up the outline -- it's doing it in a very specific way. I noticed with the refit Enterprise, and, later, with the Enterprise-D, that the aztec sections weren't symmetrical, but bilaterally reversed. Like they took alternating sections, broke them up, and swapped pieces... for reasons. I wondered if the shape of each aztec'ed section had a purpose, because it's not the smallest discrete hull section. All of the airbrushing with different spectra of pearlescent-clear inks gave the sense of smaller welded-together bits that comprised the larger astec'ed sections. Those sections are radial on the saucer, circumferential and raked-angles on the secondary hull and nacelles... Something to do with flight stress bracing? Working in conjunction with the not-yet-coined SIF and/or IDF fields?

The Buckner/Centaur had far fewer greeblies when Adam first built it. The VFX guys went nuts on it when it was picked to appear on the show. The garish colors were applied knowing it would be severely desaturated. And the fluorescent bits were to reflect different light spectra on different lighting passes, to simulate windows and warp grilles. The end result works nicely, I feel:

latest


Adam said those various bits are to reduce its sensor profile, interfere with scanner waves... generally help it be a stealthy border interdictor. He also intended its scale to be set by the Reliant model kit bridge and rollbar, but the Excelsior elements are more recognizable and prominent, and even he is waffling on what works best.

Indeed, yes. I've heard the F-4 Phantom described similarly.
That was a dig at the big, heavy Phantom from the single-engine, single-seat fighter guys: "With enough thrust even a brick can fly." Most of them ended up flying Phantoms.
That was passed along to my by a Navy friend a lot of years back -- with the follow-on, of the F-14, that "with even more, you can make the brick do tricks."
 
Adam said those various bits are to reduce its sensor profile

That's, like, the exact opposite of how reducing a sensor (radar) profile works. You don't want little bits and bobs sticking out because the radar bounces right back - on the F-22, the little airspeed sensors sticking out at the nose are the least stealthy part of the plane, and those are tiny compared to this.
 
That's, like, the exact opposite of how reducing a sensor (radar) profile works. You don't want little bits and bobs sticking out because the radar bounces right back - on the F-22, the little airspeed sensors sticking out at the nose are the least stealthy part of the plane, and those are tiny compared to this.

Even the F-22 pitot air sensor tubes are custom shaped to have a Low Profile to match the curvature of the fuselage.

There's no part of the F-22 that was built without thought to RCS.
 
Fair points. Poor choice of words on my part. I meant in the sense of active countermeasures, reducing its sensor signature/footprint. All something I feel is treading side-eye close to breaching the Treaty of Algeron. It's not quite a cloaking device, but...
 
Fair points. Poor choice of words on my part. I meant in the sense of active countermeasures, reducing its sensor signature/footprint. All something I feel is treading side-eye close to breaching the Treaty of Algeron. It's not quite a cloaking device, but...
I'm sure they were very "Specific" about what a "Cloaking device" entailed.
 
Since when has clearly stated creator intent stopped a thread in its tracks? What do those folks know? Who do they think they are?

...Okay, so I guess we now have to debate why the TOS ships had these hulls of inferior strength.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I meant in the sense of active countermeasures, reducing its sensor signature/footprint
in Tomorrow is Yesterday, Spock remarked that the ship's shield would prevent detection by 1960's radar. Although you'd think that people on the ground would be able to simply see it with the naked eye.
 
in Tomorrow is Yesterday, Spock remarked that the ship's shield would prevent detection by 1960's radar. Although you'd think that people on the ground would be able to simply see it with the naked eye.
Well technically Spock said "deflectors" which better implies some sort of radar bouncing tech. At that point though, the Enterprise was in orbit. Would people on the ground really have been able to see it?
 
At that point though, the Enterprise was in orbit. Would people on the ground really have been able to see it?

We can see satellites and the International Space Station in orbit at night, as long as they're in sunlight. But you have to know where to look. It's a big sky. Goes all the way around, in fact.
 
We can see satellites and the International Space Station in orbit at night, as long as they're in sunlight. But you have to know where to look. It's a big sky. Goes all the way around, in fact.
True but @Tenacity originally said "with the naked eye". While you could see see a point of light moving with the naked eye, that's not really the same as seeing a starship
 
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