What's the Big Lesson in STXI?

[Jeyl]

Remembering a line still didn't prove your point. Forcing Nero onto Enterprise wouldn't "save a civilization". Your words are hyperbole.

And you would know this how?

Same way you "know" everything, my friend.

I never said I knew everything, I just know that there are always possibilities for things to work out differently.

Plus, you beam him and his entourage onto Enterprise, and do what? Hand them over to Romulus?

Well, Spock Prime didn't tell Kirk or anyone else which star was going to go Super Nova in the future, so maybe either Spock or Kirk would figure out that the only way to get Nero to surrender was to offer him a chance to still save Romulas. We don't know where the Super Nova will occur, but we're willing to try and stop it now. At least that would show (God forbid) that the Federation does care about the well being of Romulas that Nero thinks we were lacking.

It's just one of those story elements that would work if done right, but no one wants to do it because they want an action oriented ending to the villain.

 

[Qonos]

He knew Romulas Still existed. He was set on destroying the Federation because it would mean a Romulan Empire not hemmed in by the Federation.

He said so while torturing Pike for the Defense codes for Earth.

Pay attention.

Nero was set and determined on his path, Destroy the Federation for revenge, and to insure that a new Stronger Romulan empire would emerge. His ship was in the Black Hole and there was no guarantee he wouldn't be sucked back to the age of Zepheram Cocheran and be able to keep the Earth from Warp Drive. The destruction of the Narada insured that no matter where the ship came out in the past it wouldn't be in one piece (If it did come out in the past where we have no indication that it wouldn't)

Kirk made the right decision, a very KIRK decision, I'm sorry that you don't see it because of your cloud of hatred for a fictional character.

 

[Borgminister]

He would likely become leader of a militaristic Romulus bent on conquering the Federation and whatever other worlds he could...

Really, it would not have been "logical" to forcibly save Nero at all.

 

[Borgminister]

It's just one of those story elements that would work if done right, but no one wants to do it because they want an action oriented ending to the villain.

No--the villain wanted that ending, not Kirk and Spock.

Plus, what's to stop the Federation from warning the Romulans about any future supernovae? If they even happen in this alternate time line?

 

[ToddPence]

I think Mark Twain had a quote at the opening of "Huckleberry Finn" that might be appropriate to this thread . . .

 

[Cakes488]

Star Trek's lessons aren't very deep or complex really. I think I got deeper life lessons during Sunday school when I was 8 years old. Trek's rep for teaching deep philosophy is way overrated. That stuff in an episode is more of a bonus than a main course. It makes the show a bit more interesting than Kirk getting in fist fights every 15 minutes or some lame comedy bit at the end.

I'm sorry the message was lost on you. But I can relate....during sunday school class I got nothing out of it. Actually it turned me off to religion completely. Maybe it is overrated about Trek and philosophy...but you can't deny that it is there. It couldn't be philosophy based or else the show woulda been canned -- but it wanted to be.

 

[Borgminister]

"Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot."

That one?

 

[Qonos]

Star Trek's lessons aren't very deep or complex really. I think I got deeper life lessons during Sunday school when I was 8 years old. Trek's rep for teaching deep philosophy is way overrated. That stuff in an episode is more of a bonus than a main course. It makes the show a bit more interesting than Kirk getting in fist fights every 15 minutes or some lame comedy bit at the end.

I'm sorry the message was lost on you. But I can relate....during sunday school class I got nothing out of it. Actually it turned me off to religion completely. Maybe it is overrated about Trek and philosophy...but you can't deny that it is there. It couldn't be philosophy based or else the show woulda been canned -- but it wanted to be.

Which was only ever stated after the fact by it's creator who was a known coke head, alcoholic, and womanizer. Yeah great morals teacher there.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

And remember, star trek was originally cowboys in space - so i don't see the need as we go back to the beginning (before star trek matures) that there has to be a world changing theme.

Ah, but the Big Lesson was introduced in the very beginning with The Cage - man would sooner die than live in captivity, even if all his needs and wants are supplied to him. Or, to quote Milton by way of Khan, it's 'better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven'.

Um the Cage was scrapped and only got its first TV viewing when it was cut up for the Menagerie, the first episode of Trek on TV screens was the Man Trap you know the one with the salt vampire.

 

[Mr Awe]

Sure they are, but they're still inspirational, and are what gave TOS its sense of optimism.

The bleeding obvious is inspirational?!

Mr Awe

A world in which the people actually live out and uphold 'the big lessons' is.

But if it's obvious, then people already know the lessons. Dull.

Mr Awe

 

[Jeyl]

Plus, what's to stop the Federation from warning the Romulans about any future supernovae? If they even happen in this alternate time line?

Good questions. Too bad they weren't asked or answered in the movie itself.

 

[M'Sharak]

"Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot."

That one?

I always did like that one.

 

[Fish1941]

Every TOS movie has given us a Big Idea or Big Lesson in its storytelling.

TMP taught us that raw information and logic without The Human Experience (tm) makes for a lonely, purposeless existence.

TWOK taught us about life, death, sacrifice, youth, aging, and the dangers of being blinded by revenge.

TSFS taught us that 'the needs of the few' can 'outweigh the needs of the many', and that cheating/breaking the rules can lead to downfall (David's use of protomatter).

TVH taught us to save the whales. Okay, it's a cheesy one, but there nonetheless More generally, take care of the environment.

TFF taught us that pain is a part of our being, gives us strength, makes us who we are. And, that a real god probably doesn't need a starship.

TUC taught us to look beyond our prejudices and differences in the quest for peace.

Part of essential Trek storytelling has always been The Big Lesson, from the earliest episodes of TOS onward.

What is the Big Idea or Big Lesson in STXI?

Learn to write a better script, the next time?

 

[Vigilance]

Commanding a starship is Kirk's first, best destiny.

The movie is about his journey to realizing the power and responsibility he has to sit in that chair and save lives.

 

[theenglish]

A battle scene? With the naming of Kirk? Cute in a nod and a wink sort of way, but not emotional by any means.

You know exactly what I'm speaking of. Your question was answered.

And if you don't get what makes those episodes great then you don't get it.

I get it, but the "morals and philosophies" don't seem to really stand out for those episodes or movies, at least fans don't talk about them much, and only come up through fans who magnify their significance beyond what they really were. People didn't tune in to "The Best of Both Worlds, Part 2" because the cliffhanger left us wondering if Shelby or Riker would resolve their issues or not.... c'mon now.

You made a statement I responded to it with a legitimate comment and you came back with a sarcastic remark. Refusing to acknowledge what I said does not make it any less true.

The people I have always watched Star Trek have always appreciated the personal emotional content, and yes we like the Science Fiction action but if that was all we liked we'd just watch a number of other lesser quality programs or movies over and over again.

Any Science Fiction that is good goes far beyond shoot-em-up action be it Firefly, the Dune series, Farscape, Blade Runner, the Foundation series, X-Files, or Star Trek.

This new film is fine but no better (or much different) in quality than a number of other television series such as Stargate (I've watched every episode once but rarely twice), Pitch Black, V, original Battlestar Galactica, Total Recall, Will Smith's I Robot, or the recent Star Wars films.

 

[theenglish]

Keep in mind, this is the same man who set a trap for the Klingons by beaming them over to his vessel that was about to self destruct.

Wrong. Kirk may have beamed them into a trap, but it wasn't to kill them. Heck, even Scotty suggested they could keep them in the pattern buffer for as long as they like, but Kirk beamed them up anyways and told Kang that he and his crew would be, and I quote 'well treated'. And the klingon ship was NOT going to self destruct. It was drifting and leaking radiation. Kirk ordered it's destruction only AFTER they beamed the remaining survivors onto the Enterprise.

I think Devon was talking about Trek III in this one. He doesn't like Klingons by that time and definitely wanted to kill some. His "Se la vie" comment to Kruge a little later in the film reinforces that.

I see this scene much differently and remember the impact of the sequence when I first saw it back in the theatre.

Kirk had no other choice (or at least that is the way he saw it) than to destroy the Enterprise and reducing the number of Klingons gave the Enterprise crew a slightly better chance of surviving. Likewise, at the end, even after everything that has happened, he tries to save Kruge and only kicks him into the lava pit when Kruge is trying to kill him.

 

[pookha]

yeah but he also says i am tired of you..
i dont think kirk regreted that kruge didnt want to be saved.

 

[Devon]

You made a statement I responded to it with a legitimate comment and you came back with a sarcastic remark. Refusing to acknowledge what I said does not make it any less true.

Where did I "refuse to acknowledge" what you said? I addressed it.

The people I have always watched Star Trek have always appreciated the personal emotional content, and yes we like the Science Fiction action but if that was all we liked we'd just watch a number of other lesser quality programs or movies over and over again.

Any Science Fiction that is good goes far beyond shoot-em-up action be it Firefly, the Dune series, Farscape, Blade Runner, the Foundation series, X-Files, or Star Trek.

This is all subjective as to what you like.

This new film is fine but no better (or much different) in quality than a number of other television series such as Stargate (I've watched every episode once but rarely twice), Pitch Black, V, original Battlestar Galactica, Total Recall, Will Smith's I Robot, or the recent Star Wars films.

But IMHO superior to a lot of other Star Trek.

 

[Cheapjack]

You made a statement I responded to it with a legitimate comment and you came back with a sarcastic remark. Refusing to acknowledge what I said does not make it any less true.

Where did I "refuse to acknowledge" what you said? I addressed it.

The people I have always watched Star Trek have always appreciated the personal emotional content, and yes we like the Science Fiction action but if that was all we liked we'd just watch a number of other lesser quality programs or movies over and over again.

Any Science Fiction that is good goes far beyond shoot-em-up action be it Firefly, the Dune series, Farscape, Blade Runner, the Foundation series, X-Files, or Star Trek.

This is all subjective as to what you like.

This new film is fine but no better (or much different) in quality than a number of other television series such as Stargate (I've watched every episode once but rarely twice), Pitch Black, V, original Battlestar Galactica, Total Recall, Will Smith's I Robot, or the recent Star Wars films.

But IMHO superior to a lot of other Star Trek.

I think it was better than 10, 9, and 8.

I don't think it was as good as Generations. It's DIFFERENT, that's all. That's why Leonard Nimoy said he liked it. Actors get bored easily.

I think someone should set JJ and Orci a challenge: do a ST that is just pure action adventure with no message, even an implicit one. Coud they do it? Can everything be turned into s***, even Star Trek??

 

[Sci]

Every TOS movie has given us a Big Idea or Big Lesson in its storytelling.

<SNIP>

What is the Big Idea or Big Lesson in STXI?

I don't know, what do you think the overly-obvious, obnoxious hit-you-over-the-head-with-the-meaning-of-the-film-because-the-writers-are-no-damn-good-at-subtext "message" of the film was? Because I surely would like to see more hackneyed allegories and obnoxious morals of the story to get in the way of actual storytelling.

Maybe we should consult the Wheel of Morality?