What's the Big Lesson in STXI?

[Omega_Glory]

The new Trek, unfortunately falls into this category as well. Plenty of pretty lights, and catch phrases galour, but what is the movie really about? It is not really ABOUT anything other than turning a profit and being a summer popcorn movie.

I would have to second that!

But you guys are making a wrong assumption because it's not just a summer Popcorn flick. Especially since people have pointed out themes in the movie.

Let go of your hate, hate leads to anger and anger leads to the dark side of the for... Oh wait wrong franchise...

You made laugh out loud on that one. It isn't hate, I actually like the film, but it has many flaws....even more than Trek V which I'd bet has gotten boatloads of criticism from the very folks who gush over this current film.

 

[Devon]

what makes many of these episodes great and memorable were not the action scenes or effects, it is the humanistic moments.

Khan: The theme of mortality and sacrifice as portrayed throughout the film, beginning with Tale of Two Cities being given to an aging Kirk who cannot read it without glasses (which also play a symbolic role throughout the movie) by his friend Spock, and later quoted by Kirk as he and Carol are looking out over the Genesis planet.

First Contact: Deals primarily with the need to maintain our humanity even when faced with inhumane enemies and against all odds. A wonderful humanistic tale for contemporary culture when some of the most ancient cultures on earth have been converted into faceless Borg drones by certain political entities.

Best of Both Worlds: Riker's struggle within himself when faced with the precocious Shelby. Has he lost his edge or hasn't he? The final scene when suddenly Shelby cannot make the right choice and wants to go back and save the Captain, while Riker looks into his friend's eyes and makes his command decision is what makes this episode so classic.

Are you available for parties?

NOW, where are the humanistic moments that bring out the same quality of emotion within the viewer in the new movie?

Tell me which of those scenes that you dug around for have brought out the discussion and emotion of the first 10 minutes of the new film?

I'm going to guess none of those, except maybe Spock's death scene, which even then....

 

[Cheapjack]

You know what, I think it would be impossible to to a Star Trek without a message. It's so much a part of it, even if it is implicit, like ST11. It's woven into the characters.

I'm sure some here could prove me wrong, if they had a go.

 

[theenglish]

what makes many of these episodes great and memorable were not the action scenes or effects, it is the humanistic moments.

Khan: The theme of mortality and sacrifice as portrayed throughout the film, beginning with Tale of Two Cities being given to an aging Kirk who cannot read it without glasses (which also play a symbolic role throughout the movie) by his friend Spock, and later quoted by Kirk as he and Carol are looking out over the Genesis planet.

First Contact: Deals primarily with the need to maintain our humanity even when faced with inhumane enemies and against all odds. A wonderful humanistic tale for contemporary culture when some of the most ancient cultures on earth have been converted into faceless Borg drones by certain political entities.

Best of Both Worlds: Riker's struggle within himself when faced with the precocious Shelby. Has he lost his edge or hasn't he? The final scene when suddenly Shelby cannot make the right choice and wants to go back and save the Captain, while Riker looks into his friend's eyes and makes his command decision is what makes this episode so classic.

Are you available for parties?

NOW, where are the humanistic moments that bring out the same quality of emotion within the viewer in the new movie?

Tell me which of those scenes that you dug around for have brought out the discussion and emotion of the first 10 minutes of the new film?

I'm going to guess none of those, except maybe Spock's death scene, which even then....

A battle scene? With the naming of Kirk? Cute in a nod and a wink sort of way, but not emotional by any means. And if you don't get what makes those episodes great then you don't get it.

 

[Devon]

A battle scene? With the naming of Kirk? Cute in a nod and a wink sort of way, but not emotional by any means.

You know exactly what I'm speaking of. Your question was answered.

And if you don't get what makes those episodes great then you don't get it.

I get it, but the "morals and philosophies" don't seem to really stand out for those episodes or movies, at least fans don't talk about them much, and only come up through fans who magnify their significance beyond what they really were. People didn't tune in to "The Best of Both Worlds, Part 2" because the cliffhanger left us wondering if Shelby or Riker would resolve their issues or not.... c'mon now.

 

[Cheapjack]

It would be a little boring if every episode just consisted of:

'And the moral of the story is...' followed by the 'lesson'.

You need a little conflict and drama.

 

[Jeyl]

You know what, I think it would be impossible to to a Star Trek without a message. It's so much a part of it, even if it is implicit, like ST11. It's woven into the characters.

I don't know. A lot of Star Trek stories I know that have the crew deal with evil characters usually ends with the our characters not killing the bad guys in some way, shape or form.

- Kirk doesn't kill the Gorn commander in "The Arena".
- Kirk doesn't kill Kang or his crew "Day of the Dove".
- Kirk doesn't kill the Romulan commander in "Balance of Terror".
- Kirk doesn't kill Khan in "Space Seed".
- Kirk doesn't even try to kill Balok in "The Corbomite Maneuver".
- Kirk decides not to kill Karidian in "The Conscience of the King".
- Despite being an entirely evil version of the crew, Kirk doesn't want to kill anyone in the Mirror Universe in "Mirror, Mirror".
- Even though they were fake and there was the possibility for success, Kirk and crew didn't kill the Earps in "Spectre of the Gun".
- Kirk refuses to destroy the Klingon attack cruiser in "Elaan of Troyius".
- Spock and crew don't destroy the Tholians in their retaliation efforts in "The Tholian Web"
- Kirk doesn't kill Garth in "Whom Gods Destroy".
- Kirk doesn't kill Kruge in Star Trek III until he is absolutely forced to.

Now, I'm not saying Kirk is a total pacifist, but these are the details. There is no reason I can think of why Kirk couldn't have beamed over the Romulan crew onto the Enterprise like he did in "Day of the Dove".

But it was all for nothing. I actually thought that Kirk's idea of making peace with Romulas was the only selfless thing he did in the whole movie, yet Spock's development went from a character who would normally show compassion to someone who would rather see the enemy dead than making peace with an entire civilization.

 

[Borgminister]

Yeah--after his mother was killed and world was destroyed. Makes perfect sense, especially since he's half human...

 

[Jeyl]

Yeah--after his mother was killed and world was destroyed. Makes perfect sense, especially since he's half human...

Which is kind of out of character from earlier since Spock ordered Nero to surrender after he commandeered Spock Prime's ship.

 

[Mr Awe]

Why does it have to have a "big lesson"? Trekkies like to proudly point to the "big lessons" in Trek. But, that's a bit puffed up. Gee, the show preaches what is usually the bleeding obvious. I'd be fine without a larger message if it was a good movie. I think the days of Trek being ahead of the social curve are long gone. It hasn't done that since TOS.

Mr Awe

 

[Devon]

Now, I'm not saying Kirk is a total pacifist, but these are the details. There is no reason I can think of why Kirk couldn't have beamed over the Romulan crew onto the Enterprise like he did in "Day of the Dove".

In that case then I'm sure there is "no reason" I can think of why Kirk couldn't have beamed over Khan, Chang, etc. Keep in mind, this is the same man who set a trap for the Klingons by beaming them over to his vessel that was about to self destruct. So there isn't anything out of character here, especially since this is the same guy that killed his father and for it caused him to live a rather unpleasant childhood.

But it was all for nothing. I actually thought that Kirk's idea of making peace with Romulas was the only selfless thing he did in the whole movie,

Nevermind saving Pike, trying to save Vulcan or saving Earth.

yet Spock's development went from a character who would normally show compassion to someone who would rather see the enemy dead than making peace with an entire civilization.

As Borgminister said...

 

[Jeyl]

Keep in mind, this is the same man who set a trap for the Klingons by beaming them over to his vessel that was about to self destruct.

Wrong. Kirk may have beamed them into a trap, but it wasn't to kill them. Heck, even Scotty suggested they could keep them in the pattern buffer for as long as they like, but Kirk beamed them up anyways and told Kang that he and his crew would be, and I quote 'well treated'. And the klingon ship was NOT going to self destruct. It was drifting and leaking radiation. Kirk ordered it's destruction only AFTER they beamed the remaining survivors onto the Enterprise.

 

[Anticitizen]

Why does it have to have a "big lesson"? Trekkies like to proudly point to the "big lessons" in Trek. But, that's a bit puffed up. Gee, the show preaches what is usually the bleeding obvious.

Sure they are, but they're still inspirational, and are what gave TOS its sense of optimism.

 

[slappy]

Classic Kirk is not a douchebag! I understand how he gets this reputation but this is not deserved! Just as it's often proclaimed that he always disregarded orders and didn't consult with the crew...he just did whatever the hell he wanted. You watch TOS looking out for these things and you'll see that it doesn't exist...of course yes on occassion but on the whole the Kirk character is nowhere near a douchebag -- Prime Kirk that is!!!

Sorry, but you're just seeing what you want to see.

Kirk has always been a cocky, douche-y type of dude and had no problem letting you know it. Often. You're just looking at Nu Kirk and refusing to see the things that have always been part of the character. Especially the fact that this young guy hasn't even made it as far in life as the other iterations of his character.

I present to you fine douchey moments in Kirk history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srOGcEYLYRw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCC0OaU8ndA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0vfDHK7vsU

 

[Mr Awe]

I think this movie wanted to at least dabble with the idea of the forces of fate v. the degree to which one controls one's own destiny. I think it did a mixed job of it at best. It never seemed to want to come down on one side or the other. Was Kirk fated to be the captain of the Enterprise, or did he control the events that led him there? Coincidences and chance meetings lead one to believe the writers may have thought fate was a more powerful force than personal control. Is that a good message or not?

Regardless of the personal beliefs of the writers, they had to take the course of fate over personal control to some extent. This was going to be a movie where Kirk is the Captain of the Enterprise and he'd be surrounded by the familiar characters. That was going to happen so that trumped a bunch of other stuff about free will. I wouldn't get hung up on the philosophy of that. It's not a message; that was just to make the movie marketable!

Mr Awe

 

[Borgminister]

Now, I'm not saying Kirk is a total pacifist, but these are the details. There is no reason I can think of why Kirk couldn't have beamed over the Romulan crew onto the Enterprise like he did in "Day of the Dove".

In that case then I'm sure there is "no reason" I can think of why Kirk couldn't have beamed over Khan, Chang, etc. Keep in mind, this is the same man who set a trap for the Klingons by beaming them over to his vessel that was about to self destruct. So there isn't anything out of character here, especially since this is the same guy that killed his father and for it caused him to live a rather unpleasant childhood.

But it was all for nothing. I actually thought that Kirk's idea of making peace with Romulas was the only selfless thing he did in the whole movie,

Nevermind saving Pike, trying to save Vulcan or saving Earth.

yet Spock's development went from a character who would normally show compassion to someone who would rather see the enemy dead than making peace with an entire civilization.

As Borgminister said...

Good points--and what's this about "an entire civilization"?!? Romulan vigilantes from the future hardly represent "an entire civilization" do they?

Of course not.

Romulus and its civilization still exist, and presumably either (a) knows nothing about the incident or (b) is secretly thankful that a mining ship that can destroy armadas isn't out there to threaten it.

 

[Mr Awe]

Say what you like, I watch it for the message. I look for the message in just about every literature I consume. Life seems fairly pointless to me without it. That's what we're here for, rather than just mannequins or puppets or 'action figures' leading a merry dance. The action is necessary, as a hypodermic to deliver the message.

I find it odd that you need literature to find that which you can't, apparently (see bolded quote), find in real life. If I look for meaning, I look at the source, real life. Not some person's attempt at portraying their personal version of it.

My suggestion to you, if you're so hungry for meaning, look first to the real world, not fiction.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

Why does it have to have a "big lesson"? Trekkies like to proudly point to the "big lessons" in Trek. But, that's a bit puffed up. Gee, the show preaches what is usually the bleeding obvious.

Sure they are, but they're still inspirational, and are what gave TOS its sense of optimism.

The bleeding obvious is inspirational?!

Mr Awe

 

[Jeyl]

Good points--and what's this about "an entire civilization"?!? Romulan vigilantes from the future hardly represent "an entire civilization" do they?

Of course not.

A. Please don't take me for an idiot.
B. It's in the dialogue:

Kirk: Show them compassion may be the only way to earn peace with Romulas. It's logic, Spock. Thought you'd like that.
Spock: No, not really. Not this time.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

If Chekov can't beam it up, it's hopeless.

Don't call people "Cupcake." It'll come back to haunt you.

If some asshole is choking you, his Daddy will totally stop him....eventually.

Always turn off the inertial fiield dampener thingies.

Don't try to hide in the bathroom. We will find you and toss your ass out.

If your best friend comes toward you with a hypospray, run.