What's Earth like in the 24th Century?

[Arpy]

Mr. Steinbrenner, I think Federation Earth could rebuild and repopulate whole cities or what we think of as countries pretty quickly. Future Earth could take in billions of immigrants without it strain. If there are any limits to the sizes or placements of cities on the planet, I think they're so by choice.

Timo, there's also no reason to think whatever the sizes of cities are above-ground that they're not also massive below-ground. Heck, if Abrams' ships are twice the size of TOS', why not his cities? This link especially from my last reply makes me think that contemporary buildings casually thrown in could have more to them than we might think. ...It would also be easier to carve out if the building above were a reconstruction of a WWIII-destroyed landmark, though Federation tech could probably hollow it out without disturbing a butterfly above-ground.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Mr. Steinbrenner, I think Federation Earth could rebuild and repopulate whole cities or what we think of as countries pretty quickly. Future Earth could take in billions of immigrants without it strain.

I'm sure it could. But Earth in the immediate aftermath of World War III would take much, much longer to rebuild or repopulate anything.

I hate to keep harping on this, but to rebuild something like even ONE major city - let alone hundreds - you have to have something left to rebuild it WITH. After a nuclear war, what could this possibly consist of? Think about it.

 

[Arpy]

^ Right, not during the Mad Max years...

BTW, can we take a moment to acknowledge how optimistic it is to think that we'd ever make it back from full-scale nuclear war? That radiation, dust, and disease wouldn't eventually wipe out whoever was left afterward? This long since the end of the Cold War, I think it's important to remember (for some Millennials, for the first time to consider) the top-level threat posed by nuclear weapons.

That said, maybe I missed it, who said New York is still around in the 24th century? That is, a non-rebuilt New York?

 

[Timo]

We have Barclay living in a not-worth-rebuilding yet still old-looking apartment in Boston in VOY, and that's about it.

Were there ever any Mad Max years? 600,000,000 sounds like an awfully low death toll for the loss of "all the major cities", each of them no doubt clocking in at 20 million or so at least (as that's the real standard of "major city" even today). Were only the major cities destroyed, and nothing else? Were the weapons employed especially good at killing cities and did little or no harm to the countryside or the smaller towns?

The nature of WWIII has never been described in great detail, but we know from "A Matter of Time" that nukes and even a nuclear winter were involved. From "Omega Glory" we know this was not the classic Commies vs. Yankees superpower exchange, as this was specifically said to have been "avoided" by Earth. So we don't know the combatants (except for this mysterious ECON) nor the length of the fighting, and we don't know how global this incident was. "Post-atomic horror" could have been a local phenomenon or a global one: "Encounter at Farpoint" gives few pointers. No landmark or location is specifically said to have been victimized by the war.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Right, not during the Mad Max years...

Excellent point. What chance would there be to rebuild, say, Sydney after the events of Fury Road? You couldn't rebuild in a world like that. So whatever Trek's WWIII was like, it couldn't have been quite as bad as that.

who said New York is still around in the 24th century? That is, a non-rebuilt New York?

Trip Tucker once said he's been to New York City. So if it's around in the 22nd century, it's around in the 24th.

 

[Kirby]

Maybe it's New New York like in Futurama.

 

[T'Girl]

I'm sure it could. But Earth in the immediate aftermath of World War III would take much, much longer to rebuild or repopulate anything.

My position (from previous threads) is that "Earth" wasn't in the immediate aftermath of World War III, the nations involved were in the aftermath. The rest of Earth likely experience a economic downturn, but the majority of the Earth was spared direct repercussions of the conventional and nuclear warfare.

According to Troi in FC, Earth had put the results of the 3rd WW behind us within 60 years. To me that mean that the majority of Humanity was capable of assisting the relative small number of nations direct impacted by the war.

In my own "in head" history of the war, the war was chiefly between China and India, the majority of the 600 million killed were in those two nations. Collectively China and India lose 19% of their populations.

While many die in the nuclear exchange, large numbers die from the collapse of society, inability to move food around, destruction of infrastructure, and health problems (burns and radiation). Surrounding nations that were dependent on the main combatants could have collapsed, the influx of refuges might have sparked internal conflicts.

I hate to keep harping on this, but to rebuild something like even ONE major city - let alone hundreds - you have to have something left to rebuild it WITH.

And that "something" would be the international aid that comes from the non-combatant nations.

After a nuclear war, what could this possibly consist of? Think about it.

Any exchange of nuclear weapon, even if "only" between two nations, would be referred to as a world war.

I seriously don't think (given the speed of recovery) that somehow the entire 200 odd nations of Earth were directly involved in the war.

The nations involved would be devastated, politically they might cease to exist, but 93% of the Human species survived the war and it's aftermath, and that wouldn't have happen if the destruction was widespread.

.

 

[hux]

Any exchange of nuclear weapon, even if "only" between two nations, would be referred to as a world war.

That makes no sense whatsoever... unless the two nations in question are bombing other countries. If they're only bombing each other, that's never a world war.

I seriously don't think (given the speed of recovery) that somehow the entire 200 odd nations of Earth were directly involved in the war.

Not every country was involved in the first or second world war but it involved enough global combatants to justify the name. The Third World War would presumably be named for similar reasons.

The nations involved would be devastated, politically they might cease to exist, but 93% of the Human species survived the war and it's aftermath, and that wouldn't have happen if the destruction was widespread.

Which is why the whole concept doesn't make much sense.

 

[T'Girl]

Ahh, so if during the cold war America and Russia (and only them) had exchanged nukes it would not have been world war three?

Of course it would have.

 

[hux]

No it wouldn't.

It would have been world war three because America and Russia would have bombed each other's allies and that would have involved other nuclear powers.

If only America and Russia are hit, that isn't a world war.

It's a nuclear war.

 

[T'Girl]

Nope, world war three.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's a nuclear war.

Nope, world war three.

Same thing, innit?

 

[MacLeod]

Well during the cold war it was the USSR and not just Russia. How many countries does it take before a war is classed as a World War or is there more to i than that, that the war has to have multiple battlefields spread around the world?

 

[hux]

I know some Americans think America is the world (and there's some little other bits elsewhere) but no, it would not be a world war if it was just two states.

it would be a world war because the allies of those two states would inevitably have no choice but to be involved (especially nuclear allies).

We used to have "Protect and survive" information pamphlets in the UK in the event of a nuclear war between America and the Soviets. The Russians would target Britain and we'd have a four minute warning (at which point you'd hide under a table cos tables are well-known for their anti-nuclear blast properties).

Same thing, innit?

If Pakistan and India attacked each other with nuclear weapons, I very much doubt it would be described as a world war.

 

[Arpy]

Anyone else have ideas for what future Earth would look/be like?

I kind of wish the New Atlantis and Mediterranean/African projects I mentioned earlier would show on orbital shots of Earth. How amazing would it be to see another continenet between the Old World and New? "The New New World."

Or to see part of California submerged or broken off into the Pacific after The Big One hit that Janeway mentioned in VOY's "Future's End, Part I"?

If we're already building mile-high skyscrapers today, what amazing buildings might exist on Federation Earth? Maybe entire cities are built in alien styles. I like to think most "modern" cities on Earth are a cosmopolitan mix of architectural styles from throughout the Federation/known galaxy. Maybe there are underground/arctic Andorian-like cities or floating Aurellian-like cities...

I also like the idea of there being an Earth-Luna "transporter superhighway" linking the two inhabited worlds by a subspace relay net of some kind.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Same thing, innit?

If Pakistan and India attacked each other with nuclear weapons, I very much doubt it would be described as a world war.

Maybe not initially, but the rest of the world would soon be dragged into it. So even if it doesn't start out as a world war, it would sure end as one.

 

[Captain Rob]

Can we assume that since everyone is eating replicated meat. That virtually all species of beef cattle, pigs, and chickens are almost extinct because nobody raises them anymore? Except for maybe a specialty ranch or two. For naturally sourced food.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Not everyone eats replicated food. Those who don't, would probably still keep herds of such animals to eat.

 

[Timo]

According to our heroes, everybody does eat replicated food, and those who don't are freaks. Possibly they do live in a bubble, but if their attitudes are that prevalent, those herds might not be permitted...

If Pakistan and India attacked each other with nuclear weapons, I very much doubt it would be described as a world war.

Key to this would be whether the nuclear slugging would extend as far as the fighting. In WWI, aerial bombings and trench warfare were confined to a tiny fraction of the global battlefield; in WWII, ditto. And many of the supposed combatants never exchanged fire with 20th century weapons.

Destroying of "all the major cities" so that New York and Paris remain unharmed might mean asymmetric warfare where powers capable of defending themselves from city-killers kill the cities of powers incapable of that. But if nobody hit New York, why is Bozeman, Montana looking as if outside the control of the government that stenciled USAF on the side of that missile?

Possibly the US was a battlefield, but between sides that were capable of protecting their cities. As East Coast Original Nations slugged it out with West Coast People's Alliance of Pre-Emptive Revolution, no city was hurt, but the countryside went back to the stone age...

I kind of wish the New Atlantis and Mediterranean/African projects I mentioned earlier would show on orbital shots of Earth.

Well, they did sink New Zealand in WWIII. Does rebuilding it for "Caretaker" count?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

We're currently the cause of a mass extinction on this planet on par with the one that killed the dinosaurs. Let that sink in for a moment.

Imagine if by Trek's time, many populations of endangered and even extinct species were repopulated to make up for past sins. If oceans were no longer farmed to decimation. If broad expanses of continental land are no longer cross-crossed by endless highways and suburban sprawl as cities grew higher and beneath the ground, and air & sub-ways reopened the land. With towns pockmarking said lands cohabitating with local wildlife.

Maybe some wildlife populations could also be seeded offworld...terraformed Luna and Mars could host herds of Buffalo or Chickens or Dodo birds or White Rhino from Earth. Similarly, Earth could host say wild targs and living gagh and other lifeforms that perhaps needing resettlement from Praxis. Alien creatures that could smoothly fit into Earth's ecosystem.