Whatever happened to Kes?

[Lynx]

I see where you're coming from, but realistically, there's not going to be a series or a movie. That's why we've just been getting characters pop up here and there. The closest you're gonna get to a Voyager revival is Star Trek: Prodigy, give it a go if you wanna see more Voyager.

I'm aware of that but I'm still unhappy that they didn't keep the Voyager team intact. They could have showed up in a movie or even more important, been the main characters in books. As it is now, a lot of good characters have been wasted.

As for Prodigy, I would definitely watch it if Kes shows up in a way which I find acceptable.

Actors playing characters is not the same as musicians playing music.
People go see a musician to see the musician.
People go to the movies or watch TV for stories.
Most people don't care if someone is recast.

I do!
I've seen some horrible examples of "replacements" in some shows.
One exampel which isn't that horrible is the guy who played Kirk in the NuTrek movies. When I see him, I don't see Captain Kirk. I see my buddy Thomas from the school I was in when I was 15 because the actor looks like him. That makes the NuTrek movies a bit ridiculous ,the only funny thing with those movies, I must add.

As a matter of fact, In an unfinished story I've written there is a captain Thomas Kirk, grand-grandson (or whatever) to James T. Kirk.

Some are, some aren't.

Most are after 2010.

How? I've seen Picard (all 3 seasons) and Discovery (S1-2). I didn't find them doom and gloom.

Picard was doom-and-gloom. I mean, just look at the torture scene in which they wasted Icheb for no reason at all. I started to lose interest for the series there and then.

Discovery was just plain bad with the Mutant Ninhja Turtles which were supposed to be Klingons and bland and boring characters, like that hysterical captain.

And yes, I forgot to mention that the NuTrek movies were gloomy and destructive too with the destruction of Vulcan and Romulus which spilled over to Picard as well. I find the destruction of those planets almost as annoying and stupid as the destruction of Kes, Garak (ina recent book) and maybe also Gowron (even if that episode of Ds9 was good in general).

Netflix has a lot of good content, but if you only want to see Prodigy, the Blu-rays are available.

I will think about that.

WeIl, that can change. And hopefully the Ocampa will take up into space and begin to explore and expand into nearby space and exploit its resources to rebuild their civilization (and hopefully not exterminate anyone)

But still, Ocampa is a bit out of the "main road" and would probably not be a main feature in movies, series or books.

I mean, the Ocampans live 9 years, only have one child, which means for every two Ocampans who die, they will be replaced by one, meaning a rapidly shrinking population. They are entirely reliant on their underground city. It's no wonder Kes wanted out. Susperia had the right idea. What do you think? The Caretaker was trying to fix his mistake and save the Ocampans in the short term, but in the long term, he did more harm than good - but not on purpose. His dying act was to protect them, telling Janeway how important it was.

I agree when it comes to your comments about Kes and Suspiria here.

As for the nine-year lifespan and the "one child" thing, they were the result of the writers lack of thinking. How could they come up with such stupid things?

If I was in charge, I would change it immediately by giving Kes a human lifespan and finding out a way to do the same for the Ocampa. The one-child stupidity could be done a way with in many ways, like the idea of the Ocampa having three or more children.

There is actually a hint of that in the episode Before And After where Benaren calls Kes his "favorite daughter". Did Kes have sisters?

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Well, I always assumed that Ocampa have many children during elogium. Eaither that, or they're somewhat like guinea pigs (if a female guinea pig don;t have a child until it's 1 year old, it can no longer have any children in the future, more specifically, it cannot give birth).

 

[GulBahana]

Was it mentioned if the Ocampa still have a short lifespan even when they're more fully evolved like Kes? Maybe I need to revisit the Ocampa shows.

 

[Lynx]

Was it mentioned if the Ocampa still have a short lifespan even when they're more fully evolved like Kes? Maybe I need to revisit the Ocampa shows.

No, it was never mentioned.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

I always assumed she went home and helped her people advance to the surface or something.

I'm more interested in learning what drove her insane between "the Gift" and "Fury." I'm aware that the novels answer this, but those aren't canon.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I always assumed she went home and helped her people advance to the surface or something.

I'm more interested in learning what drove her insane between "the Gift" and "Fury." I'm aware that the novels answer this, but those aren't canon.

How many times are you going to let Grandpa Drive through a Dennys, until you take away his car keys?

The fact that she seemed to start remembering the message from her younger self, telling grumpy god Kes that her friends are cool is... OMG! She "Notebooked" herself!

Jennifer in Fury was wearing "old lady" prosthetics, then used space Magic to look like she was 1 years old, all over again.

Sketchy hunky Ocampa Tanis was going to live to be 14, but he did not "age" at all while visiting Susperia as a non corporeal.

 

[rocketscientist]

Just saw this article about returning the character of Kes, without Jennifer Lien, to the ST franchise:

MSN

I wasn't aware that Ms. Lien had mental health issues during Voyager that contributed to her removal. I always thought it was all due to the writers having trouble with the character of Kes, not Ms. Lien herself.

In any case, while I am not a fan of Kes, I'm sorry to hear about Lien's distress during and after Voyager. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. I hope she is in good spirits now and doing well.

Hollywood is a very very harsh place and a lot of people just get eaten up and can't deal with that terrible reality. I certainly would never ever want to be in the entertainment business, most especially as an actor, where rejection and frustration is the normal course.

 

[Lynx]

Just saw this article about returning the character of Kes, without Jennifer Lien, to the ST franchise:

MSN

I wasn't aware that Ms. Lien had mental health issues during Voyager that contributed to her removal. I always thought it was all due to the writers having trouble with the character of Kes, not Ms. Lien herself.

In any case, while I am not a fan of Kes, I'm sorry to hear about Lien's distress during and after Voyager. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. I hope she is in good spirits now and doing well.

Hollywood is a very very harsh place and a lot of people just get eaten up and can't deal with that terrible reality. I certainly would never ever want to be in the entertainment business, most especially as an actor, where rejection and frustration is the normal course.

Honestly, we can't be sure if it is like that article says, that Lien had "mental problems during her time in the voyager cast which contributed to her removal".

I mean, those in charge lied twice back then about the reasons for dumping Lien and her character so how can we be sure that they are not lying now too, just to look better in the eyes of the fans.

In fact, there were no rumors at all about any mental issues or problems back then and nothing at all about this subject until the recent problems started back in 2015.

Anyway, I hope that she has got her life back in order now.

 

[rocketscientist]

Honestly, we can't be sure if it is like that article says, that Lien had "mental problems during her time in the voyager cast which contributed to her removal".

I mean, those in charge lied twice back then about the reasons for dumping Lien and her character so how can we be sure that they are not lying now too, just to look better in the eyes of the fans.

In fact, there were no rumors at all about any mental issues or problems back then and nothing at all about this subject until the recent problems started back in 2015.

Anyway, I hope that she has got her life back in order now.

Yeah, I know there weren't any comments regarding any mental distress with regard to Ms. Lien's departure at the time, but it could've been a case of respecting her privacy.

But, yeah, in any case, I feel very bad for the hard road her life took and I really hope she is doing better now.

I always felt the character of Kes just didn't work well at all, kind of like Deanna Troi's counselor role was problematic in TNG or how Wesley Crusher's character was written badly in TNG as well. None of that was Lien's fault at all and she did the best she could with what she was given. It's truly a shame what happened to her.

 

[Lynx]

Yeah, I know there weren't any comments regarding any mental distress with regard to Ms. Lien's departure at the time, but it could've been a case of respecting her privacy.

But, yeah, in any case, I feel very bad for the hard road her life took and I really hope she is doing better now.

I always felt the character of Kes just didn't work well at all, kind of like Deanna Troi's counselor role was problematic in TNG or how Wesley Crusher's character was written badly in TNG as well. None of that was Lien's fault at all and she did the best she could with what she was given. It's truly a shame what happened to her.

As I wrote before, I don't trust people who lie. Not only once but twice and possibly three times as well.

If, and I mean if there is any truth in their recent statement which I sincerely doubt, I think that they should have told the truth from the beginning. Or at least something more close to the truth.

OK, I can understand if they wouldn't go out with at statement that "the actress has gone nuts and we can't keep her in the cast anymore". But they could at least have come up with something like "she thinks it's too much pressure with the long days of filming and like to do other things in her life".

That would have been more honest than the pathetic excuse that "Jennifer left of her own free will" which obviously was far from the truth and then "the writers can't come up with ideas for the character" which was a downright lie considering the fact that the writers were able to come up with good stories for the character up to the last minutes of season 3.

I have to disagree with your statement that "the character didn't work well".

despite the flaws the character had for which we can blame the writers who came up with the limited lifespan, the one-child syndrome and some weird minor things, I think that Kes was a great character and that Jennifer Lien did an excellent work.

As for both Troi and Wesley Crusher, I find them good characters too. Troi as a telepath and counselor was OK, the only thing which was a bit annoying was her ability to end up in relationships with such slimy characters like Devinion Ral and Ves Alkar. At least the episode with Alkar was a bit exciting due to the spooky story and Alkar himself, a character who was really disgusting, while I could have lived without Ral who was only a slimy character.

As for Wesley Crusher, I can't accept how they ruined him in Journey's End. That was character destruction too, not as bad and sadistic as the destruction of Kes but still character destruction.

I mean, before that he was a good character, OK he could actualy be a bit annoying in the early episodes with those "Wonderboy Wesley saves the day" scenarios and his habit to mess up things, like the episode with the nanites.

But during season 3 he got better and better and then they just dump him early on in season 4!

The First Duty was a good episode, I mean everyone can make a mistake and Wesley did that. But then he came forward and confessed. So far so good.

But then came Journey's End when he come back as a spoiled brat who creates trouble and mess with things he shouldn't have been involved with. Then he leaves with that Traveler, another slimy character to "explore the universe". And after that they have done everything to keep him out of everything Star Trek. A shame, as I see it!

I have added Wesley to the list of characters who should be restored in some way, a list which includes great characters like Kes, Garak, Gowron, Neelix, Carey and maybe even Sloan and Shelby.

As for Kes, it's actually her birthday today!
You may wonder how and why.

As you remember, Kes's birthday was celebrated in the episode Twisted.

Twisted has no official Stardate. But if we look at the Stardates for the surrounding episodes, the episode Elogium takes place at Stardate 48921.3 which according to my calculations is Thursday 9 December and the episode The 37's takes place at Stardate 48975.1 which according to my calculations is Wednesday 22 December.

So I came up with the Stardate 48945.8 for the episode Twisted which is Sunday 12 December.

Happy Birthday Kes!

 

[rocketscientist]

As I wrote before, I don't trust people who lie. Not only once but twice and possibly three times as well.

If, and I mean if there is any truth in their recent statement which I sincerely doubt, I think that they should have told the truth from the beginning. Or at least something more close to the truth.

OK, I can understand if they wouldn't go out with at statement that "the actress has gone nuts and we can't keep her in the cast anymore". But they could at least have come up with something like "she thinks it's too much pressure with the long days of filming and like to do other things in her life".

That would have been more honest than the pathetic excuse that "Jennifer left of her own free will" which obviously was far from the truth and then "the writers can't come up with ideas for the character" which was a downright lie considering the fact that the writers were able to come up with good stories for the character up to the last minutes of season 3.

I have to disagree with your statement that "the character didn't work well".

despite the flaws the character had for which we can blame the writers who came up with the limited lifespan, the one-child syndrome and some weird minor things, I think that Kes was a great character and that Jennifer Lien did an excellent work.

As for both Troi and Wesley Crusher, I find them good characters too. Troi as a telepath and counselor was OK, the only thing which was a bit annoying was her ability to end up in relationships with such slimy characters like Devinion Ral and Ves Alkar. At least the episode with Alkar was a bit exciting due to the spooky story and Alkar himself, a character who was really disgusting, while I could have lived without Ral who was only a slimy character.

As for Wesley Crusher, I can't accept how they ruined him in Journey's End. That was character destruction too, not as bad and sadistic as the destruction of Kes but still character destruction.

I mean, before that he was a good character, OK he could actualy be a bit annoying in the early episodes with those "Wonderboy Wesley saves the day" scenarios and his habit to mess up things, like the episode with the nanites.

But during season 3 he got better and better and then they just dump him early on in season 4!

The First Duty was a good episode, I mean everyone can make a mistake and Wesley did that. But then he came forward and confessed. So far so good.

But then came Journey's End when he come back as a spoiled brat who creates trouble and mess with things he shouldn't have been involved with. Then he leaves with that Traveler, another slimy character to "explore the universe". And after that they have done everything to keep him out of everything Star Trek. A shame, as I see it!

I have added Wesley to the list of characters who should be restored in some way, a list which includes great characters like Kes, Garak, Gowron, Neelix, Carey and maybe even Sloan and Shelby.

As for Kes, it's actually her birthday today!
You may wonder how and why.

As you remember, Kes's birthday was celebrated in the episode Twisted.

Twisted has no official Stardate. But if we look at the Stardates for the surrounding episodes, the episode Elogium takes place at Stardate 48921.3 which according to my calculations is Thursday 9 December and the episode The 37's takes place at Stardate 48975.1 which according to my calculations is Wednesday 22 December.

So I came up with the Stardate 48945.8 for the episode Twisted which is Sunday 12 December.

Happy Birthday Kes!

If Lien was suffering from anything, it was probably depression and/or anxiety and that's nothing to be ashamed of. And, yeah, I really don't think that was it. I don't believe she voluntarily left the show, I think it was all at the behest of Braga and company who wanted to add Seven and had to ditch one of the existing characters to afford it and they decided that that character would be Kes. I would've much rather it had been Neelix, who I find tremendously irritating and creepy, but what's done is done.

And, no, I'm not really referring to the inherent problem of Kes' 9 year lifespan or 1 child per Ocampa biology, though those, of course are huge problems. I'm referring to her role on the ship. She had a pretty passive role, largely being a friendly ear for other characters, most especially the EMH, as Robert Picardo has said in interviews. Yes, she was the nurse and in charge of the ship's arboretum, but, like Troi, it just wasn't enough. Plus, also like Troi, most especially in TNG seasons 1 and 2, the character could be way too cloying. I guess some people like that, but I didn't care for it.

But, whatever, that's my opinion and you have yours. I do think it was really sad what they did to Miss Lien though and the subsequent utter character assassination that was "Fury." I guess that was Kes with Alzheimer's or something. Whatever, it was a complete fail of an episode and a very terrible way for Ms. Lien's character to go out.

And with respect to Troi and Wesley, yeah, the writing for both characters did get better. I really grew to like Troi more and more. Wheaton was always a fine actor and his final episodes as Wesley finally gave him some great stuff to work with. I wish his character arc had been better from the start. He should've been shown more as a real kid, making a lot more mistakes and being a moody teenager. Ron Moore admitted that they failed at writing Wesley as a kid. Fortunately, at the end, he got some good episodes.

 

[carcinoGeneticist]

Kes was dumped from Voyager and the actress who played her, Jennifer Lien was bruatlly fired because the narrow-minded fools in charge of the show wanted a "sexy babe" in the show to boost the ratings.

The original plan was to dump Harry Kim and fire actor Garret Wang but when a silly inside poll among the staff of a glossy magazine placed Garret Wang among "the 50 most handsome", those in charge of the show changed their plans, fired Jennifer Lien and dumped Kes instead.

The episode in which Kes "left" called The Gift was a worthless piece of crap with a thin, unconvincing story which didn't make any sense at all. It looked as if the so-called "writer" had written the script for it while sitting on the toilet, using the paper to write on or during a five minute coffee paus.

Some seasons later, the arrogant people in charge of the show became annoyed by the fans who wanted Kes back and hadf staged a letter campaign for it. So they decided to give them a lesson.

What happened then was that they decided to totally destroy the character in a horrible, sadistic episode where Kes was portrayed as an insane monster who wanted to destroy the ship and kill her friends.

The plans were to kill off the character but jennifer Lien, the fired actress who all of a sudden was welcome to partictipate in that horrible destruction of her character made them change their mind about that so instead the character Kes was turned into a pathetic and crazy old wreck determined to ttavel back to Ocampa in a shuttle with no chance at all to manage with that.

By coming up with that insulting piece of s**t, the worst episode ever made in any TV series, those in charge managed to show the "finger" to those ungrateful fans who wanted Kes back, sort of:

"So you wanted your little favorite back? Well, eat this you scum! And don't you ever question our divine decisions because this is our show and we do what we want. Your only obligation is to sit in front of your TVs and say "yes" to everything we do and decide while filling our wallets by loyally watching our show".

The explanations for dumping Kes were also pathetic lies which have been changed from time to time.

Firts they told us that "Jennifer Lien had left of her own free will" which obviously wasn't too convincing.

So they changed their stiory to "We couldn't come up with good stories for the character" which was an even more ridiculous way to cover up their ghastly business. Can anyone believe that professional writers all of a sudden lose their abilities to write good stories for a character when they had managed to do that up to the last episodes in which Kes was present (with the exception for the episode which was written during a short visit to a toilet)?

Not to mention that there were talks about "mutual agreement" when Jennifer Lien was dumped.

Now, anyone who have the slightest knowledge about movies, TV series, music and showbiz in common knows that everytime the words "mutual agreement" are used, then foul play is involved.

So in later years they had to change the story again, now using actress Jennifer Lien's problems in recent years as some excues to fire the actress all those years ago.

Well, you know the old saying. "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" so what about "fool me three times........."?

As for a return of Kes in later series, I must admit that I wished for many years that she would return in some series or books.

But considering how bad and destructive the NuTrek movies and recent series like the crappy DSC and the downright lousy PIC have been and how the writers of the Star Trek books are doing their best to ruin, destroy and execute good characters from TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY, then I'm happy that Kes never have been brougt back to any gloomy 2020's series, book or movie.

Not to mention that it will be very hard to bring back the character without Jennifer Lien's participation. Back in the days when there still were some good acting here and there, I used to think of skilled actresses like Kirsten Dunst, Renee O'Connor, Laura Harris or even Nicole DeBoer as possible replacements if Jennifer Lien couldn't or wouldn't participate.

But as it is today, I have no intention at all to watch some third rate actress, some Melissa Spicegirl with big artificial lips ruin the character further than already have been done.

Due to the doom-and-gloom trend in the TV-series today, they would probably destoy aand ruin he character even more, most likely kill her off.

Thanks for your attention and have a nice day!

...What the hell?
That's... an interesting explanation, I guess. I had no idea.

 

[Lynx]

If Lien was suffering from anything, it was probably depression and/or anxiety and that's nothing to be ashamed of. And, yeah, I really don't think that was it. I don't believe she voluntarily left the show, I think it was all at the behest of Braga and company who wanted to add Seven and had to ditch one of the existing characters to afford it and they decided that that character would be Kes. I would've much rather it had been Neelix, who I find tremendously irritating and creepy, but what's done is done.

And, no, I'm not really referring to the inherent problem of Kes' 9 year lifespan or 1 child per Ocampa biology, though those, of course are huge problems. I'm referring to her role on the ship. She had a pretty passive role, largely being a friendly ear for other characters, most especially the EMH, as Robert Picardo has said in interviews. Yes, she was the nurse and in charge of the ship's arboretum, but, like Troi, it just wasn't enough. Plus, also like Troi, most especially in TNG seasons 1 and 2, the character could be way too cloying. I guess some people like that, but I didn't care for it.

But, whatever, that's my opinion and you have yours. I do think it was really sad what they did to Miss Lien though and the subsequent utter character assassination that was "Fury." I guess that was Kes with Alzheimer's or something. Whatever, it was a complete fail of an episode and a very terrible way for Ms. Lien's character to go out.

And with respect to Troi and Wesley, yeah, the writing for both characters did get better. I really grew to like Troi more and more. Wheaton was always a fine actor and his final episodes as Wesley finally gave him some great stuff to work with. I wish his character arc had been better from the start. He should've been shown more as a real kid, making a lot more mistakes and being a moody teenager. Ron Moore admitted that they failed at writing Wesley as a kid. Fortunately, at the end, he got some good episodes.

I agree with some of your points here.

As for ditching characters, I think that no one should have been ditched when Seven was added. If they couldn't have ten main characters, they should have stuck with those they alreadu had and developed them.

I can see your points when it comes to Kes's "passive role" even if I don't totally agree. Nothing wrong with nice and friendly characters.

However, I would have liked to see more episodes like Persistence Of Vision, Cold Fire, Caretaker and The Swarm where Kes really made a difference and in different ways saved the situation. Her courage, determination and will should have been used more.

As for that episode in season 6, it's impossible for me to see some resemblance at all between the evil witch who showed up and wanted to destroy the ship with Kes.

As for Troi and Wesley, the writing got better but I do find the writing for Wesley in Journey's End horrible.

I mean, here they have this talented kid who so much wanted to be a Starfleet Officer and then they waste him and turn him into an arrogant idiot in that episode and not much has been done to correct that. I wouldn't mind to have Wesley back as a Starfleet Officer in some future series set in the 24th century, a series better than PIC.

 

[rocketscientist]

Yeah, maybe Kes could've worked better if they had just given her a more important role on the ship. I honestly wish, again, that Neelix was the one they got rid of and I wouldn't have cared if Chakotay or Kim had left either.

And, with respect to Journey's End, I get your point. I think the problem is that there just seems to be a big change in Wesley's personality, as you said. It's too much and you're left wondering what the heck happened to him. He was all gung-ho about Starfleet before and then he isn't? Was it due to the stuff that happened in The First Duty? In any case, if they wanted Wesley to embrace the Traveler role, then maybe they could've gotten him to feel like there's something else he should be doing, or something like that.

That said, Journey's End isn't nearly as bad as Fury was.