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Whatever happened to Kes?

Could be. As long as she still looks like Kes.

Althogut I must say that Dark Side - users already could do most of the above. Dark Maul ripped apart entire hyperdrive of a Venator - class Star Destroyer in the Clone Wars final episode... Vader did kill with "angry look" in The Empire Strikes Back (and over viewscreen). And it should be nted that all "hand gestures" Force users in Star Wars do are just a help. All you really need is the focus of one's mind, and these gestures help... But are not nessesary.

Yes, Endgame with Kes has a lot of possibilities.
 
Could be. As long as she still looks like Kes.

Althogut I must say that Dark Side - users already could do most of the above. Dark Maul ripped apart entire hyperdrive of a Venator - class Star Destroyer in the Clone Wars final episode... Vader did kill with "angry look" in The Empire Strikes Back (and over viewscreen). And it should be nted that all "hand gestures" Force users in Star Wars do are just a help. All you really need is the focus of one's mind, and these gestures help... But are not nessesary.

Yes, Endgame with Kes has a lot of possibilities.
I don't follow Star Wars, so ya lost me there. I just watched a hilarious review of "Fury," click here! A very British guy not even trying to use Star Trek language is what made it so funny. :lol: Beware, he likes to say "time f***ery." :lol:
 
What is the general feeling, was it worth losing Kes to get Seven?
After that change I think the show got too Borg heavy.
Was that because Seven came along....
Would the Borg have appeared so often if Kes had stayed and wasn't replaced?
 
I don't actually think Borg appearing oftwn had a lot to do with Kes leaving. They could still appear while Kes was there. Especially since KEs often seemed to "forget about her powers" in Season 1 - 3.

As Admiral Jean-Luc Picard said already, Kes had Force -like powers from the beginning, yet she rarely used them (I mainly remember "Cold Fire" and "Persisitnce of vosion". And they could be useful in fights, like in "Basics part 1").
 
What is the general feeling, was it worth losing Kes to get Seven?
After that change I think the show got too Borg heavy.
Was that because Seven came along....
Would the Borg have appeared so often if Kes had stayed and wasn't replaced?
No, it was not worth losing Kes to get Seven.

Voyager was good as it was. It had nine excellent characters and a great premise and all of that could have been even better with better writers.

If it had been absolutely necessary to bring in Seven, then they could have had ten main characters. none of the original characters should have been dumped.

But when it comes to the question if there hade been less Borg without Seven, I'm not so sure about that. They had already introduced the Borg in episodes like Blood Fever and Unity and since they did seem to lose direction after the Kazon and the Vidiians were left behind, maybe they needed a new adversary and I guess it was like "let's bring in the Borg, the viewers love the Borg".

However, I would rather have seen some other adversary than the Borg. As I see it, the Borg were finished already in TNG.
 
What is the general feeling, was it worth losing Kes to get Seven?
After that change I think the show got too Borg heavy.
Was that because Seven came along....
Would the Borg have appeared so often if Kes had stayed and wasn't replaced?
From what I've read, Kes would have been written out with or without Seven due to Lein's mental health issues. As for too Borg heavy, let's check that.

S4: The opening two episodes, "The Raven" which ends up just being hallucinations and memories, some "historically inaccurate" hologram Borg in "Living Witness," some hallucinations in "One," and a cameo at the end of "Hope and Fear." Voyager only goes up against the Borg in the first episode, and that's it.

S5: The accidental 29th century drone leads to a Borg cameo that he quickly dispatches himself. The Borg return for the first real front-and-center appearance since "Scorpion" in the tele-movie "Dark Frontier" where the Queen wants Seven to rejoin the collective, and we learn the Borg have mostly left Voyager alone on purpose, because they were using Seven as a spy. Just two episodes this season.

S6: We open up with "Survival Instinct," an ex-Borg episode. Hologram fantasy Borg cameo in "Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy," so that doesn't really count. Voyager comes across a dead cube with six Borg kids in "Collective," while definitely a Borg episode, it's not the collective. The Borg cameo in "Child's Play" which served as a sequel to "Collective." The Borg return front and center in the season finale, "Unimatrix Zero, Part I." An ex-Borg episode, a fantasy cameo, the Borg kids episode, a cameo in the sequel to the Borg kids episode, and the season finale. From these episodes, the Borg collective is only front and center in one episode.

S7: Naturally, the Borg are in "Unimatrix Zero, Part II." This two-parter is probably my favorite that was a true two-parter and not one of the four telemovies. Some dead Borg and wreckage cameo in "Imperfection" when Seven needs spare parts. A few hologram-Borg cameos in the "Flesh and Blood" telemovie. Borgified Sevena nd friends from "Scorpion, Part II" return in "Shattered" because time travel, so that was fun. The Borg cameo in Q2, because Q Jr. wanted to "have some fun." :lol: Naturally, the series finale telemovie would bring the Borg back one last time for a final showdown.

Is this really using the Borg too much given each season was 26 episodes?
I didn't mean Kes leaving made the Borg appear more but her replacement was a Borg so that was the connection.
Maybe, I think the Borg would have shown up anyway because of all the sets, props, costumes, and so on left over from First Contact.
 
If it had been absolutely necessary to bring in Seven, then they could have had ten main characters. none of the original characters should have been dumped.

If Jennifer Lien was available they should have kept her.
Replacing characters like that isn't nice.

As for too Borg heavy, let's check that.

Is this really using the Borg too much given each season was 26 episodes?

The Borg appeared in 23 episodes, right?
That's a lot.
But that was their style.
It's just that how many times can you beat an enemy that is so much more powerful until that enemy isn't that dangerous anymore?
 
However, I would rather have seen some other adversary than the Borg. As I see it, the Borg were finished already in TNG.
I mean, not really. In TNG, we only knew of two Borg cubes. The first from "Q Who?" and "The Best of Both Worlds" that went kaboom at the end of Part II. The second came and rescued Hugh at the end of "I, Borg" and was cut off from the collective due to being infected with individuality, leading to the rogue Borg in the "Descent" two-parter. The Borg collective were still at large, far from finished. In First Contact, the Borg lost a third cube, and most of the film deals with a Borg crew that escaped in the Borg sphere and then beamed over to the Enterprise. Again, the Borg as a collective were still at large. It made sense to use them on Voayger.
 
If Jennifer Lien was available they should have kept her.
Interviews from the producers have dropped, admitting Lein was let go due to mental health issues.
The Borg appeared in 23 episodes, right?
That's a lot.
But that was their style.
It's just that how many times can you beat an enemy that is so much more powerful until that enemy isn't that dangerous anymore?
I mean, the Klingons and Romulans were probably used just as much on TNG, the Cardassians and Dominion probably used just as much on DS9. Why can't Voyager have go-to villains like the other two shows?

23 episodes out of 172, is that a lot? But, let's break it down.
S4 - 6 episodes, but the Borg front-and-center, just one episode.
S5 - 3 episodes, but the Borg were only front-and-center in "Dark Frontier" (telemovie, counts as 2 episodes)
S6 - 5 episodes, but the Borg collective were only in the season finale.
S7 - 7 episodes ("Flesh and Blood" and "Endgame" count as 2 episodes each), the Borg collective only appear in the premiere and telemovie series finale.

Out of these numerous appearances, the Borg Collective are only front and center in 7 episodes. Everything else is cameos, holograms, memories flashbacks, ex-Borgs, stuff like that.
 
What is the general feeling, was it worth losing Kes to get Seven?
After that change I think the show got too Borg heavy.
Was that because Seven came along....
Would the Borg have appeared so often if Kes had stayed and wasn't replaced?
Despite Seven's growth it was not a good trade. I would have kept Kes over much of the main cast.

What happened to Kes? She joined Gary Mitchell and the Thasians for weekly poker nights.
 
7 of 9 was obviously the better choice. After all, she’s still alive and Kes is dead.
Stupid comment.

Not even in official "canon" made by those who destroyed and ruined the character is she considered "dead".

From what I've read, Kes would have been written out with or without Seven due to Lein's mental health issues.

Interviews from the producers have dropped, admitting Lein was let go due to mental health issues.

Please don't tell me that you all of a sudden believe in those fairytales made up by those in charge when you have posted a different opinion earlier?

As I myself wrote in a post some time ago when that issue was brought up:

With the "Celebration book", we finally have the true story why Jennifer Lien was fired and the character Kes was dumped……………..or have we?

Let’s take it from the beginning. In the beginning of season 4, Kes is suddenly dumped from the show. After three years of good performances in the series, Kes have an important role in the cliffhanger Scorpion and then suddenly written out of the series in the following episode, a badly written one which seems to have been made in a rush, only to get rid of the character as soon as possible.

The official explanation was that “Jennifer Lien left of her own free will”. Nothing more, no comment from Jennifer herself, nothing.

Of course, such a lousy explanation didn’t go down among the fans. Almost immediately rumors started to spread that Jennifer Lien had been fired. So those in charge came up with a new version.

This time we were told that “the writers could no longer come up with good stories for the character” and that Jennifer had to go and that it was a “mutual agreement”. Now, everyone with the slightest knowledge of the entertainment business knows that “mutual agreement” means “fired” and that there is foul play involved.

To come up with something so silly that experienced writers after three years of coming up with many good stories for a character all of a sudden lose the ability to continue with that is downright insulting to the fans and, as expected weren’t accepted either. Instead there were more rumors spreading about what really happened.

What happened next was that those in charge of the show did all they could to erase all memories of the character. She was never mentioned in the series again and all focus was on her successor Seven Of Nine until those in charge decided to bring back the character with the one and only intention to ruin and destroy the character in an episode who is regarded as one of the worst ever in any TV series and honestly never should have been made.

And now, more than 20 years later we get this new and final statement that Jennifer Lien was fired and Kes written out because of Jennifer Lien’s increasing mental problems.

Can we really assume that this is the absolute truth or is it just an attempt to use Jennifer Lien’s recent problems as an excuse to justify that she was fired from Star Trek Voyager back then?

Personally I do have some problems with this. They have lied about this twice so how do we know that they are not lying again for the third time and using recent sad events to make up another story which will make them look all innocent?

Note that Jennifer wasn’t put in some institution back then or inactive in any way. She had an important role in “American History X” and were also in a movie called “SLC Punk”, she got married, had a child, continued to participate at conventions, studied art and had what looks like a normal life. In an article at startrek.com called “catching up with Jennifer Lien” in 2010 she seems to have a normal, happy life. In the article she stated that: "I have kids, I study, and I'm active with a life that doesn't involve acting anymore." She added that she was taking college courses with the goal of becoming a nurse, dietician, or nutritionist — whatever would give her the most time with her family.

Then everything went quiet until she all of a sudden shows up in Harriman, Tennessee and having trouble with the law.

The only disturbing thing I noticed during those years were her sudden weight gain, which may have been a result of her earlier pregnancy and the following struggle with that but also may have been the result of mental problems. She lost weight then gained weight again and so on. But that can happen to anyone. However, I’m not a doctor and I don’t know Jennifer so I won’t speculate about what might have happened which caused that or triggered recent events.

But let us now be kind to those in charge of the show and assume that their latest statements actually are the truth and nothing but the truth. If that’s so, then I still have to ask: Why didn’t they tell the truth from the beginning?

OK, I can truly understand that they couldn’t or wouldn't come up with a statement like “Jennifer is having mental problems and we can’t keep her in the show”. But they could at least have come up with something like “Jennifer Lien is finding the filming schedule and the long days of work too stressful and will therefore leave to focus on other projects”. That, added with some comment from Jennifer herself or her management would have settled the whole thing.

Instead, they came up with all those ridiculous lies about writers not being able to do their job, mutual agreements and on top of all the constant BS about how good it was to get rid of Kes so that the show could have Seven Of Nine instead and how Seven saved the show.

What all that did was to create more rumors, more distrust and more controversy. I must admit that if they had bothered to come up with a decent explanation from the beginning, I would have accepted that instead of becoming so involved in this thing and acting the way I did.

However, I wasn’t the only one to react that way. There were letter campaigns to have Kes back and a lot of questions from more people than me. However I may have been the worst one which I have realized in recent years and isn’t too proud about.

But I must also state that a glimpse of the old, angry Lynx actually did show up when I read the statement from Jeri Taylor about “We knew that there was something going on,” Taylor admitted. “But she wouldn’t talk or let us offer to help.”

Well, I can understand that it can be impossible to have a very troubled person in the cast. I know about rock musicians who have been kicked out of their bands for less worse things. So I understand that there might have been necessary to do what they did, if the recent story tells the truth. But what they did after that was to more and less to try to erase the character from everyone’s minds and by doing so disregard and neglect Jennifer‘s work on the show, then bring her back to make a fool of herself in the worst episode ever made for a TV show and then more and less pretend that she never existed. With “friends” and “help” like that, she probably doesn’t need any enemies.

Anyway, what has happened to Jennifer Lien is a sad and tragic story. I’ve experienced a similar thing happen to a person who was very close to me once and this whole Kes/Jennifer thing has for me been to experience the nightmare once again.

It’s so tragic that an obviously nice and shy person and a talented actress should end up the way she has done. We can only hope and pray that she can get her life back in order. The support from family and friends are important but she also need inner strength and determination to overcome this. Let us hope and pray for the best.

Let us also hope that Jennifer will have more credit for her contributions to the series than she has had in the recent years after her dismissal from Voyager and that the character Kes will be restored in future books and stories. That would be a nice tribute to Jennifer as well.

As for the Borg, as i have written before, they were finished in TNG.

One problem with having a superior, almost invincible enemy in a series like Star Trek is that sooner or later it reaches the point when the "good guys" will get the upper hand in the conflict.

Mostly with some new technology, super weapon or weakness in the invincible enemy itself.

When that happens, the superior invincible enemy will lose everything which made them interesting.

That happened at the end of Best Of Both Worlds and later on when the Borg became humanized and "velourized" by characters like Hugh and The Borg Queen (or Wimp Queen as I call her after First Contact when she was wimping around Picard like a lovesick schoolgirl).

From that on The Borg was just another weird species.

Not to mention that they were rather one-dimensional as a species too, heavily relying on theit technology.

Personally I find the Cardassians and the Founders much more interesting as villains than The Borg. They were not superior when it came to technology and such but they were cunning, treacherous, dangerous and much more interesting.

If Jennifer Lien was available they should have kept her.
Replacing characters like that isn't nice.



The Borg appeared in 23 episodes, right?
That's a lot.
But that was their style.
It's just that how many times can you beat an enemy that is so much more powerful until that enemy isn't that dangerous anymore?
No, it wasn't nice, it was rude and unnecessary.

As for my opinion about the Borg, read my reply to Admiral Jean-Luc Picard above.
 
She's either dead (since her species don't live very long) or evolved into some sort of super being. The reason they haven't really done much with her is because the actress who plays her is rather troubled.
 
She's either dead (since her species don't live very long) or evolved into some sort of super being. The reason they haven't really done much with her is because the actress who plays her is rather troubled.
She already evolved into a super being in "The Gifted," evidenced by wacked out powers in "Fury." The only question is, can Susperia gift her with longevity like those teenage Ocampans? :shrug:
Please don't tell me that you all of a sudden believe in those fairytales made up by those in charge when you have posted a different opinion earlier?
Objectively, there are only limited reasons for why Jennifer Lein left the show.
#1 She quit.
#2 She was fired.
#3 She was let go to make room for a new character.
#4 She was let go, because the producers / writers were running out of ideas with Kes.
#5 She was let go, because "personal problems."
I cannot think of a 6th option. Most likely, it was a mix of #3 and #5. No one's ever said she up and quit, and no one's said she was just up and fired. I don't buy that the writers "ran out of ideas," you had some really talented people working on the show. I honestly believe the main reason was to make room for Seven, but "personal problems" could have been a secondary reason. Additionally, that can mean like a hundred things, so there's nothing to gain from speculation.
As for the Borg, as i have written before, they were finished in TNG.
But what does that mean? They were not finished on the show, they were still a major threat to the Federation. The Borg did return in the 2nd film First Contact.
One problem with having a superior, almost invincible enemy in a series like Star Trek is that sooner or later it reaches the point when the "good guys" will get the upper hand in the conflict.

Mostly with some new technology, super weapon or weakness in the invincible enemy itself.

When that happens, the superior invincible enemy will lose everything which made them interesting.
I never saw the Borg as invincible, only mysterious. Learning about the Borg loses mystery, but it also adds layers and makes them more interesting.
That happened at the end of Best Of Both Worlds and later on when the Borg became humanized and "velourized" by characters like Hugh and The Borg Queen (or Wimp Queen as I call her after First Contact when she was wimping around Picard like a lovesick schoolgirl).
What happened at the end of "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" was the defeat of a single Borg Cube, not the Collective. At no point in the movie did the Queen ever "wimp" around Picard like a schoolgirl. :cardie:
From that on The Borg was just another weird species.
Not really. What species would you compare the Borg to?
Not to mention that they were rather one-dimensional as a species too, heavily relying on theit technology.
I mean, so does literally anyone flying around outer space.
Personally I find the Cardassians and the Founders much more interesting as villains than The Borg. They were not superior when it came to technology and such but they were cunning, treacherous, dangerous and much more interesting.
I do agree, the Cardassians, Jem'Hadar, and Founders were some of the best villains on DS9.
 
She already evolved into a super being in "The Gifted," evidenced by wacked out powers in "Fury." The only question is, can Susperia gift her with longevity like those teenage Ocampans? :shrug:
She could easily be restored to normal and get something like a human lifespan by Q or Suspiria.
Everything is possible in Star Trek.

Objectively, there are only limited reasons for why Jennifer Lein left the show.
#1 She quit.
#2 She was fired.
#3 She was let go to make room for a new character.
#4 She was let go, because the producers / writers were running out of ideas with Kes.
#5 She was let go, because "personal problems."
I cannot think of a 6th option. Most likely, it was a mix of #3 and #5. No one's ever said she up and quit, and no one's said she was just up and fired. I don't buy that the writers "ran out of ideas," you had some really talented people working on the show. I honestly believe the main reason was to make room for Seven, but "personal problems" could have been a secondary reason. Additionally, that can mean like a hundred things, so there's nothing to gain from speculation.
Yes, but I reacted to your comment about her being fired back in the 90's for mental problems when you earlier on had dismissed that.

But what does that mean? They were not finished on the show, they were still a major threat to the Federation. The Borg did return in the 2nd film First Contact.
Unfortunately they were in that movie.
I see them as finished when they were defeated in Best of Both Worlds. After that, they were just a common adversary.

I never saw the Borg as invincible, only mysterious. Learning about the Borg loses mystery, but it also adds layers and makes them more interesting.
I don't think they became more interesting later on when they were "humanized", they went from invincible super enemy to just an ordinary adversary. I do find the Founders and the Cardassians more intersting. They were never invincible but they were dangerous and cunning.

What happened at the end of "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" was the defeat of a single Borg Cube, not the Collective. At no point in the movie did the Queen ever "wimp" around Picard like a schoolgirl. :cardie:
Yes, but that was the key to how to defeat them and theior invincibility was gone. And yes, I think that the Borg Queen "wimped" ariound Picard in that movie.

Not really. What species would you compare the Borg to?
Any more and less dangerous species that Starfleet encounter. From the Cardassians to the Pakleds.

I mean, so does literally anyone flying around outer space.
Yes, but many of the others were more interesting. I think that the Borg lost everything that was interestin and mystic after Best Of Both Worlds.

I do agree, the Cardassians, Jem'Hadar, and Founders were some of the best villains on DS9.
:techman:
 
As for the Borg, I think it was a mistake to name them "collective". What5 they were in the beginning was as "singularity" - a single entity in many bodies, a true hive mind. A collective, in my opinion and accordijg to what I know, is not a aingle entity. It's more like the Founders. A state in which individualities are mignled, without particular borders, impossible to isolate but still exist. This is like Voyager Borg, and there Quenn is justofied. In a true hive mind, a singularity, not so much.
 
She could easily be restored to normal and get something like a human lifespan by Q or Suspiria.
Everything is possible in Star Trek.
Q would be cheating, but I like the idea of Kes visiting Susperia for help on her way home.
Yes, but I reacted to your comment about her being fired back in the 90's for mental problems when you earlier on had dismissed that.
I've just been reading stuff online, I didn't mean to come off as flip flopping. I mostly stand by the idea that the producers just wanted a 10th regular and couldn't afford 10, so someone had to go. There can be secondary reasons, but this one is most obvious. DS9 didn't have to drop anyone when Worf joined, because they had a cast of 8 pre-Worf. The show was also syndicated and thus had a lot more freedom that Voyager which was on a network (UPN).
Unfortunately they were in that movie.
Unfortunately? It's the best of the TNG films. :eek:
I see them as finished when they were defeated in Best of Both Worlds. After that, they were just a common adversary.
I mean, the Borg are more than just one ship.
I don't think they became more interesting later on when they were "humanized", they went from invincible super enemy to just an ordinary adversary. I do find the Founders and the Cardassians more intersting. They were never invincible but they were dangerous and cunning.
They were never invincible, just unknown and mysterious. When a villain loses that "mysterious unknown" factor, you give them layers and find ways to make them interesting. Guinan suggested the Borg were thousands of years old. Voyager suggested the Borg were likely about a thousand years old when they came across the Vadwaar who had been in statis for some 800 years. They remembered the Borg as being no threat, only a few solar systems, I think. Then there's the Queen, going after Species 8472, Locutus, Seven of Nine, ex-Borg, the idea of Seven as a failed Borg spy, and the list goes on.
Yes, but that was the key to how to defeat them and theior invincibility was gone. And yes, I think that the Borg Queen "wimped" ariound Picard in that movie.
Invincibility is boring. I'd rather a villain be complicated than Superman-level invincible. How do you define "wimping?"
Any more and less dangerous species that Starfleet encounter. From the Cardassians to the Pakleds.
The Padleds are only dangerous if you beam over. :lol:
Yes, but many of the others were more interesting. I think that the Borg lost everything that was interestin and mystic after Best Of Both Worlds.
Fair enough, for me, the "mystery" wasn't the draw, it was the unstoppable force, the "space zombie" factor if you will.
 
Stupid comment.

Not even in official "canon" made by those who destroyed and ruined the character is she considered "dead".

Kes only had a 9 year lifespan. It’s right there in the show. Your denial is irrelevant. The character is dead until the writers decide she isn’t. And that ain’t happening, because Lien will not be acting again.
 
Kes only had a 9 year lifespan. It’s right there in the show. Your denial is irrelevant. The character is dead until the writers decide she isn’t. And that ain’t happening, because Lien will not be acting again.
Did we see her die? No. In "Fury," Kes is now 6 years old. At the end of the episode, she was on her way home to Ocampa in her supped-up alien shuttle. Susperia's Ocampan faction were teenagers. Voyager ended in 2001, 23 years ago, so she'd be anywhere from 7 to 8 years old as of Voyager's homecoming or about 30 years old if she were to pop up around the time frame of PIC S3. Remember that she could de-age herself in "Fury," even if just temporary, plus she had all of those cosmic powers, plus the Susperia factor. There's also "creative writing" to factor in. In summary, Ke's fate is unknown.

I do like the idea of her coming home around the time of the underground city running out of power, helping her people to surface and start again, perhaps with the help of Susperia and the teenage Ocampans.
 
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