Unfortunately, though, if you did what those people wanted and turned Trek back into something more familiar, an entirely different but equally militant and aggressive segment of fans would be disgruntled.
What would you change about this series?
- Thread starter The Overlord
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Unfortunately, though, if you did what those people wanted and turned Trek back into something more familiar, an entirely different but equally militant and aggressive segment of fans would be disgruntled.
Yeah, Discovery is honestly not going to beat In the Pale Moonlight, no matter how hard it tries.
It was inherently contrived. Of course, Crusher couldn't fix the problem and of course she had to get assistance from an unethical surgeon. The issue with tardigrade was only raised in last week's episode. The storyline hasn't been explored in depth yet so there is no factual basis to say that this won't be explored from various angles.
Has the tardigrade plot been done to death, maybe, but previous series recycled this trope as well. Star trek is all about tropes being recycled it's hard for that not be the case after 700 episodes.
And I’ve said that was the best part of the episode.
In fairness, neither Voyager or Enterprise reached those heights either. If other Star Trek series are anything to go by making that judgement based on the first four episodes is kneejerk. I'm sure if we judged Deep Space Nine on its first four episodes, I doubt any of us would think it would ever produce an episode like 'In the pale moonlight'
- Make it a full on reimagination.
- If you are going to change the Klingons, lets change them. Ive seen scenes in different shows over decades of even average looking Starfleet officers holding their own, hand to hand with the Klingons. Make the Klingons alot tougher. Id say their strength is somewhere between a Vulcan and a Gorilla. Id make a human punching a Klingon feel like a human punching a brick wall. Fiercer, stronger and devastating. Also their make up and prosthetics seem too heavy, and stiff. Combined with the slow, ponderous, all-Klingon language dialogue, the Klingon scenes are a monotonous drag on the show.
- Set it on Pikes Enterprise with Spock, Number One, etc.
- Return to the Flight suit style uniforms of ENT. You can make some changes, but no goddamn glittery bedazzling.
- George Kirk and Lorca (who should still appear) went to academy together and are ahole buddies. Lorca should become renegade, but not a looney bird like Garth.
- If you are going to change the Klingons, lets change them. Ive seen scenes in different shows over decades of even average looking Starfleet officers holding their own, hand to hand with the Klingons. Make the Klingons alot tougher. Id say their strength is somewhere between a Vulcan and a Gorilla. Id make a human punching a Klingon feel like a human punching a brick wall. Fiercer, stronger and devastating. Also their make up and prosthetics seem too heavy, and stiff. Combined with the slow, ponderous, all-Klingon language dialogue, the Klingon scenes are a monotonous drag on the show.
- Set it on Pikes Enterprise with Spock, Number One, etc.
- Return to the Flight suit style uniforms of ENT. You can make some changes, but no goddamn glittery bedazzling.
- George Kirk and Lorca (who should still appear) went to academy together and are ahole buddies. Lorca should become renegade, but not a looney bird like Garth.
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My point wasn't to say that I didn't think Discovery could never make a basically flawless episode. If it's given enough seasons, it of course could. But In the Pale Moonlight was basically the perfect exploration of whether it's morally defensible to harm one being in order to save many, many others. Better that Discovery attempts to turn over ground as of yet unplowed.
Understood. I concur that 'In the pale moonlight' is the benchmark. Incidentally, I'm binging season 6 at the moment on Netflix and Inthe pale moonlight just start
Blood wine?
I agree with those who say the show needs tighter writing. As it is, it does feel filled with a lot of circumstance, and some of the characters are a bit impulsive. The pacing is weird too, as I feel things happen too quickly in places, lacking in exposition and details, but also that it languishes and seems to take forever to get to key points. Taking 4 episodes before Bernham becomes part of the Discovery crew may be too long for some people.
As for the Klingons, I don't think the language is the problem. We've seen plenty of lengthy scenes, both in the movies and DS9 where they were speaking Klingon. It's in the execution. They've made boring lethargic Klingons and people are having a hard time connecting with them enough to feel invested in them, and as such we end up not really caring about their journey. Instead, it just feels like a generic sci-fi trope we've seen thousands of times.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we ever saw scenes where they would speak only Klingon for five or more minutes. You're right about the boringness and the lethargy, though. Holy hell, it looks like the actors are trying to run in three feet of snow. Those scenes are such a slog.
It is and they are writing our hero to be part of the equation.. this Star Trek of Discovery/verse is mean.
I recall the episode you have paralleled here. Not that it should come down to this but one was an episode (Voyager), and the other situation (with Ripper) is going to be an ongoing theme. So it's not just an issue considering the ethical quandary of a story in context of other stories within a season, it is for Discovery creating the tone. It's not a good look. B'Ellana did not want to be saved via knowledge the holographic version of Crell developed by experimentation on Bajorans. Both her and the Doctor did not sponsor those actions. With Ripper the crew, the Captain, are initiating the torture. Now to be fair the test will be in the next forced use of the creature.
My point in using Nothing Human as an example was to point out that characters were faced with an unethical choice to save Torres by using knowledge obtained via torturous methods and countless deaths went ahead with it anyway. Captain Janeway violated, B'elanna's personal wishes and ordered the Doctor to perform the surgery, despite knowing the methods that moset used to obtain his knowledge. Do you think that Janeway made the right choice, or would you have preferred that she allow B'elanna to die and for her to lose a friend and highly skilled engineer? Janeway almost allowed an Equinox crew member to die to get information on Ransom. Was it ok for Janeway to do this to stop Ransom from killing aliens? Is it ok for Janeway to erase history potentially changing millions of lives to save seven of nine and get 140 people home quicker?
I'm using these examples to show that Starfleet officers have to make pretty awful decisions at times for the greater good. I'm not saying it's ok but what is happening in Discovery isn't different to situations we've seen before.
I do disagree. But I also respect your opinion. It ain’t perfect. The writing could be better. I’m baffled with the Klingons. But I’m intrigued with the characters and where this thing is going. I do, however, respect your opinion.
Like I said upthread: You can ask a dozen Trek fans to discuss what they feel is the heart of Star Trek and you’ll get two dozen answers.
"Sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones. But you still have to choose." - The Twelfth Doctor, Mummy on the Orient Express
My problem is that they're telling us that this is supposed to dovetail nicely into earlier Trek and that couldn't be further from the truth.
I'd have zero problems with visual updates to make stuff that fits into 2256 look good at 1080p or 4K, but what we got looks like a dystopian post-Nemesis future. I was hoping to say "Wow, they made something that fits into Pike's era and it looks really good!"
The way the story was written is that Janeway did not torture the Bajorans. She didn't stand over their deaths. So if a comparison is to be made, Janeway and B'Ellana are more like the miners in the Discovery episode. Lorca is like Crell himself, he's also like Ransom.
I can't get on board seeing Discovery as just another version of a storyline thread from other Trek. I'm not seeing characters with integrity and Federation principles as their foundation. Our best bet is a mutineer. I don't admire them.
Now you're equivacating. Janeway readily used knowledge that she knew was obtained by torture and murder. In doing so she justifies the actions of a mass murderer of hundreds of people. Why is that ok? I ask you again, was it ok for Janeway to almost kill a fellow Starfleet officer, by exposing him to the nucleogenic aliens to get information on Ransom's whereabouts? I'd liken that to torture. Janeway had zero integrity, and displayed actions unbecoming a starfleet officer when she did that, but were her actions ultimately ok, because of what ransom was doing?
I disagree, there is a huge difference between benefiting from an unethical act and committing it yourself.
B'elanna and the doctor didn't seem to think so.
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