What would Jesus do?
- Thread starter RobertScorpio
- Start date
Not too surprising given that Klaatu is basically a Christ figure. He goes by the alias "Mr. Carpenter," he rises from the dead, ascends to the heavens, etc.
Was it all that ballsy? After all there was no "Prophets"-- not in the sense that Bajorans worshiped-- there was only transtemporal aliens living in the wormhole. It was very "classic" 'Trek in the sense that it showed that "God" was mortal and fallible and could be defeated; the only difference was that Bajorans didn't get rid of their beliefs.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
I think it was Ballsy. There were several episodes devoted to the religion of the Bajoran people. And I'm not quite sure, if at the end, if it was really decided, one way or another, if they were prophets or not.
Just including religion, which I don't believe in by the way, but to even include it in a mainstream SCIFI show was ballsy...IMO. GR probably rolled in his grave all through the run of DS9, but who cares? It was a great show, and by far, IMO, light years ahead of Voyager and Enterprise....
Rob
Dr_Daystrom
Commander
Many sci-fi movies are Christ analogies (from off world, saviors, power to heal and/or raise the dead, awaited by priests and others, died and resurrected, persecuted). E.T., Starman, Superman, Dune, The Matrix, The Fifth Element, Phenomenon, The Day the Earth Stood Still, etc., etc.
Good point!
At first it was that way. But soon the message of the power of faith took hold. It didn't matter that The Prophets were really aliens. All that mattered was what they stood for. Sisko took the CL Lewis route and stopped being a cynic and, not only became a believer, but the took on the role of Emissary with total conviction. The Prophets were not revealed to be secretly evil(which is what happens a lot in the genre) just out of touch and they became the force for good that The Bajorans believed them to be.
To do a Christian-themed allegory in a pro-Atheist franchise was quite ballsy.
Riiiight
. Yet another bumpy forehead belief system as an analogy for any Judeo-Christian one. If they were really ballsy, they could have used an actual Earth religion. I know the move would have incited the anger of any one of the Big Three of monotheism. But hey, wasn't Star Trek notorious for that at one time?
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Clash of the Titans? 
I always thought that the Foundationist sect in B5 was interesting since they were interested in the point where all religions have common ground.
I always thought that the Foundationist sect in B5 was interesting since they were interested in the point where all religions have common ground.
Riiiight
Except that Moore and Behr even admitted it as being influenced by Moses and parts of The Bible when they wrote Sisko's arc.
Riiiight
Except that Moore and Behr even admitted it as being influenced by Moses and parts of The Bible when they wrote Sisko's arc.
Again. I don't see the ballsyness. How about introducing a character who was a practicing Jew, Christian, or Muslim who comes to the station and concludes that the Prophets were in fact the Almighty and that the Dominion War was his way of raining down on all sentient beings Old Testament style. That would have been bold, even by Trek standards, instead of Nurse Ratched prattling on about Prophets and emmisaries.
Riiiight
Except that Moore and Behr even admitted it as being influenced by Moses and parts of The Bible when they wrote Sisko's arc.
Again. I don't see the ballsyness. How about introducing a character who was a practicing Jew, Christian, or Muslim who comes to the station and concludes that the Prophets were in fact the Almighty and that the Dominion War was his way of raining down on all sentient beings Old Testament style. That would have been bold, even by Trek standards, instead of Nurse Ratched prattling on about Prophets and emmisaries.
Probably the same reason they've never had a openly gay person on Trek.
I consider the idea that acknowledging faith and religion as something that taps into something "REAL" ballsy enough, especially for Star Trek, which has been in practice of taking the opposite stance.
Going that route, especially with a literal "ONLY ONE TRUE RELIGION" route with one of the big three Earth religions (currently) would have been a direct repudiation of the Trek U (room for everyone) and also pandering to one of them.
Also, it would have been a repudiation of the idea that no one ism has all the truth.
That simply wouldn't be Trek.
You can do, SHOULD do treatments of faith as "real" things in the Trek U, without the idea that you must alienate everyone and create a universe of the "faithful" and "unbelievers" doomed to burn for eternity.
Going that route, especially with a literal "ONLY ONE TRUE RELIGION" route with one of the big three Earth religions (currently) would have been a direct repudiation of the Trek U (room for everyone) and also pandering to one of them.
Also, it would have been a repudiation of the idea that no one ism has all the truth.
That simply wouldn't be Trek.
You can do, SHOULD do treatments of faith as "real" things in the Trek U, without the idea that you must alienate everyone and create a universe of the "faithful" and "unbelievers" doomed to burn for eternity.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
Very interesting post, stonestar. I am not a believer, however, I found DS9 very interesting because it did have a religious spin. Sure, the FEDS saw the wormhole beings as just another one of those 'living energy thingys.' I mean, how many time in STAR TREK(S) have the crews been possesed by plasma clouds..
But, for all we know, and DS9 dodges it quite cleverly, those wormhole entities are Gods as well....
If I were someone Starfleet type living on Bajor and didn't believe in the Prophets after all the crap that planet went through in the seven seasons of DS9? I'd move...
Rob
Exactly.
Faith IS a real thing to people in our world. And though some have tried their damndest, science hasn't been able to dismiss it. BUT...that doesn't mean that one is right and the other wrong. I contend, as do some scientists and some theologians and mystics, that honest practitioners of all the fields are using what tools and knowledge they are comfortable with to tap into something transcendant, sublime.
Trek has always acknowledge the existence of the transcendant, sublime. They try to wrap it up in technobabble most of the time, but it's there, nonetheless.
Faith IS a real thing to people in our world. And though some have tried their damndest, science hasn't been able to dismiss it. BUT...that doesn't mean that one is right and the other wrong. I contend, as do some scientists and some theologians and mystics, that honest practitioners of all the fields are using what tools and knowledge they are comfortable with to tap into something transcendant, sublime.
Trek has always acknowledge the existence of the transcendant, sublime. They try to wrap it up in technobabble most of the time, but it's there, nonetheless.
I imagine that most, if not all, of us are pretty familiar with how Trek has treated the subjects of faith and religion. Not that we should skip Trek in this discussion, but I'm particularly interested in how shows outside of Trek have handled it. Doctor Who, nuBSG, Stargate, Babylon 5, Firefly, etc. Issues of religion and faith are critical staples in science fiction, viewed and printed.
One show that I can't recall off-hand ever delving into that subject is Farscape. I'd be happy for examples if anyone can think of some.
One show that I can't recall off-hand ever delving into that subject is Farscape. I'd be happy for examples if anyone can think of some.
I LOVED the way Babylon 5 handled the issue, also Galactica.
Faith actually does play a big role in Farscape. The character Zahn was a priestess who was very spiritual, but struggled with darkness and temptation. Also, the ship herself, Moya, was deeply spiritual and one episode dealt with her meeting her "God" after she did the unprecedented and unintended for her species, giving birth to a warship.
Doctor Who and the larger WhoU (Torchwood) has a more complicated, convoluted history with the spiritual and faith. The Timelords are ultra-rationalists, tending to dismiss such. Yet such clearly exists in the WhoU, even though the Doctor (and his culture) tend to "technobabble" such things (most of the time, but at times, he has been at a loss).
Stargate, they tend to take the Trek approach.
BSG, faith and powers are CLEARLY a part of that universe, though how it works and it's role still isn't clear.
Firefly, faith as an internal quality and deep communion does definitely play a part, being an important trait of Sheppard Book and Inara Sera. Also, faith is an important part of the character of Malcom Reynolds, in that he's a hurting soul who feels let down by God and still carries that hurt, a very deep one.
Faith actually does play a big role in Farscape. The character Zahn was a priestess who was very spiritual, but struggled with darkness and temptation. Also, the ship herself, Moya, was deeply spiritual and one episode dealt with her meeting her "God" after she did the unprecedented and unintended for her species, giving birth to a warship.
Doctor Who and the larger WhoU (Torchwood) has a more complicated, convoluted history with the spiritual and faith. The Timelords are ultra-rationalists, tending to dismiss such. Yet such clearly exists in the WhoU, even though the Doctor (and his culture) tend to "technobabble" such things (most of the time, but at times, he has been at a loss).
Stargate, they tend to take the Trek approach.
BSG, faith and powers are CLEARLY a part of that universe, though how it works and it's role still isn't clear.
Firefly, faith as an internal quality and deep communion does definitely play a part, being an important trait of Sheppard Book and Inara Sera. Also, faith is an important part of the character of Malcom Reynolds, in that he's a hurting soul who feels let down by God and still carries that hurt, a very deep one.
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Very good point about Zhaan, and you're right. I guess I had been reading so much in this thread about Trek and allusions to Judeo Christianity, that my mind was clouded from seeing the Delvians' more "Earth/Mother/Goddess' type of faith. Thanks for that reminder.
As for B5's treatment, being a person of faith myself that was one reason why I've enjoyed the show so much. For my part, I appreciated what appeared to be an even-handed approach, taking in both the negative and the positive. Many times, I've relayed how ironically I almost swore off the series after watching the episode "Believers".
In nuWho, one of my most favorite episodes from the first two series was "The Impossible Planet / The Satan Pit".
As for B5's treatment, being a person of faith myself that was one reason why I've enjoyed the show so much. For my part, I appreciated what appeared to be an even-handed approach, taking in both the negative and the positive. Many times, I've relayed how ironically I almost swore off the series after watching the episode "Believers".
In nuWho, one of my most favorite episodes from the first two series was "The Impossible Planet / The Satan Pit".
Oh, Babylon 5, acknowledged it in two major ways, as some of the deep mysteries of the universe, as well as that of the soul. Several characters on the show were genuine seekers. Also others ran from the spiritual, and that showed as well. Babylon 5 acknowledged it as a significant force in lives of individuals and motivations in the big power play pageant in the big picture, for both good and ill.
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