What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yet a cat and a serval can successfully interbreed...they're actually not of the same genus, but still the family. Let me introduce you to the adorable (but very pricey) result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SZEPNYHMKQ

(If you're not familiar with the Savannah breed, F1 indicates that this cat is a first-generation mix, so 50% housecat, 50% serval.)

Now, IRL I totally agree that you would not see that kind of interbreeding with the kinds of species we see on Trek, excepting certain cases where the "same genus" thing is VERY obvious.

But, while the science is certainly not what would fly in the real world, what I'm trying to point out is that if you approach the problem through storytelling logic instead of through scientific logic, there is sense in the writers' decisions.

 

[StarryEyed]

By the way, if anyone happens to be looking for an example of a circular argument...not to point a finger at anyone in particular, but this thread is one:

"What would an Andorian-Vulcan hybrid look like?"
"That's impossible, two different humanoid species could never breed."
"But they have on Trek."
"But that doesn't make sense, they shouldn't have been able to."
"But they have...therefore, in the Star Trek universe, it's possible. So what would an Andorian-Vulcan hybrid look like?"
"That's impossible, two different species could never breed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Click the link above to learn what a circular argument really is. The jist is that you start with an unsupported claim you present as a fact and use it justify another claim which in turn is supported by the original claim.

Example:

The Christian God is real because it says so in the Bible.

The Bible is true because it is the word of God.

TiberiusMaximus, did you miss all the explanations as to WHY it is not possible for two creatures with radically different physiologies to produce natural offspring?

You need to go back and reread the thread. There is no circular argument here. Biology is plenty well enough understood to know that hybrids are only possible among extremely close species - and that is between species with identical body chemistry. Imagine the absurdity of hybrids between species with different blood chemistry, different blood pressures, different body temperatures - on top of morphological differences and organs in different locations.

 

[StarryEyed]

So, while the science is certainly not what would fly in the real world, what I'm trying to point out is that if you approach the problem through storytelling logic instead of through scientific logic, there is sense in the writers' decisions.

Well what comprises "storytelling logic" is a subjective thing so it really isn't up for discussion. Not only is it going to differ between individuals but the same individual's acceptance will vary in different stories. I think light sabers are really cool and I have no problem accepting them in Star Wars because that is borderline swords and sorcery. But if there is a light saber duel between Picard and the Borg queen, I am going to cringe in horror. I have different standards for Star Trek and Star Wars.

I was the first negative responder in this thread and what did I say? I told the OP to use his imagination because that is the only place it will happen. That wasn't a put-down; it was a stating of fact that this thing is in fantasy land. No guidelines can be offered because it is flat-out impossible in the real world. If somebody wants to use it in a story anyway, that's fine but there is no point in trying to be scientific about it because science says no way.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

By nature the explanation is going to be pseudoscientific. I know full well that's what my "explanatory" essay on the subject that I did offsite is. Frankly, I do not expect accuracy in science from Star Trek--it exists on a pseudoscience level, whereas really hard sci-fi...at risk of losing my geek license, I don't like it because I think there's often focus lost on characters and interactions, and I don't like seeing mysticism shut out entirely.

 

[Therin of Andor]

How many times does it have to be pointed out that Humans and Gorillas are almost genetically identical and still can cannot breed?

I knew a woman whose pet canary laid an egg after a sparrow got into the outdoor aviary to steal food. The baby hatched and was a mottled yellow and brown canary-looking sparrow.

Zebras and donkeys have bred successfully in zoos - and horses and donkeys usually produce strong but infertile mules and hinnies... but, every so often, IIRC, the resulting offspring is not infertile. (Wikipedia: Since 1527 there have been more than sixty documented cases of foals born to female mules around the world. In contrast, according to the ADMS, there is only one known case of a female hinny doing so.)

And check out this bizarre goat/sheep hybrid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toast_of_Botswana

And a fertile hybrid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholphin

 

[Pauln6]

Just because Therin wants to mate with human females doesn't make it right...

Actually, that is a whole other can of worms. There is no reason why consenting members of different species shouldn't 'interact'. If they want children, they should adopt... like Madonna! Sarek and Amanda should have adopted a cute Mugato baby. You can't tell me that wouldn't have loads of story potential... sort of like having the Warner Brother's Tasmanian Devil at the science station.

Babylon 5 had a better approach, with the Centauri appearing human but having completely different sex organs and Delenn requiring genetic alteration to make her compatible with a human.

They almost blew it in the pilot episode though, when G'Kar pervs all over Lyta Alexander, hoping to impregnate her naturally.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

StarryEyed said: The Chase was a nice effort to try to justify the mess but it fails miserably. All humanoids are NOT of the same genus; evolution does not work that way. Even if it did, creatures with dramatically different physiology like Andorians and Vulcans could still not produce natural offspring. How many times does it have to be pointed out that Humans and Gorillas are almost genetically identical and still can cannot breed?

I felt the whole point of The Chase is that the separate humanoids did not evolve naturally but were seeded b the Ancient Progenitors. So 'that's not how evolution works' is a moot point in my humble opinion.

StarryEyed also said: Click the link above to learn what a circular argument really is. The jist is that you start with an unsupported claim you present as a fact and use it justify another claim which in turn is supported by the original claim.

Example:

The Christian God is real because it says so in the Bible.

The Bible is true because it is the word of God.

TiberiusMaximus, did you miss all the explanations as to WHY it is not possible for two creatures with radically different physiologies to produce natural offspring?

You need to go back and reread the thread. There is no circular argument here. Biology is plenty well enough understood to know that hybrids are only possible among extremely close species - and that is between species with identical body chemistry. Imagine the absurdity of hybrids between species with different blood chemistry, different blood pressures, different body temperatures - on top of morphological differences and organs in different locations.

As for 'circular logic'...okay, so this post is not circular logic but it is going around in a circle. Some say 'it's not possible'. Others, like me, say, 'I hear you, but it happens in Trek. So in-universe it's possible.' It's like warp drive...do you honestly think it's possible? Or tachyon pulses? Or wormholes? Or non-linear aliens?
The Trek universe has millions of story possibilities. Some of the above concepts are necessary for some of those stories, and hybrids create many story opportunities too.
And after this, some of the people who disagree will still say, 'you're not listening. Hybridisation between two humanoid species is impossible.'
My point has been all along that most of Star Trek is impossible. If you can't suspend your disbelief to the point where you accept hybrids, that's fine by me. To each their own. But like I said before, there are levels of disbelief waiting to be suspended, and that is the basis of this discussion - or rather, the disagreement in this discussion. I have not missed the explanations as to why it's 'impossible', have you missed the fact that it happens in Trek? I choose to believe the Ancient Progenitors programmed that ability into their descendants/experiments, but I can see we'll have to agree to disagree. Again, to each their own. I don't feel like arguing anymore or turning this into an angry discussion, so I'll leave it at that. Have a nice day.

 

[DevilEyes]

How many times does it have to be pointed out that Humans and Gorillas are almost genetically identical and still can cannot breed?

Has anyone actually tried it?

Wait, don't answer that.

 

[Sal'ira]

(In the future, homosexuality has long since been cured by neural neutralizer, I suppose.)

I'm sorry, but there was never anything to cure. It's not a disease. I believe that in the future, homosexuality is accepted. Just as all races, genders, and religions are accepted, so too will someone's sexuality, no matter what it may be.

 

[DevilEyes]

(In the future, homosexuality has long since been cured by neural neutralizer, I suppose.)

I'm sorry, but there was never anything to cure. It's not a disease. I believe that in the future, homosexuality is accepted. Just as all races, genders, and religions are accepted, so too will someone's sexuality, no matter what it may be.

Spoiler: Myasishchev

He was being sarcastic.

 

[Myasishchev]

Good thing you used spoiler tags, you might have ruined the surprise.

Sal'ira, I know your heart's in the right place, but there is no great importance in being so earnest. *Literary rimshot*

 

[Pauln6]

(In the future, homosexuality has long since been cured by neural neutralizer, I suppose.)

I'm sorry, but there was never anything to cure. It's not a disease. I believe that in the future, homosexuality is accepted. Just as all races, genders, and religions are accepted, so too will someone's sexuality, no matter what it may be.

Do they also have a cure for robosexuality?

 

[Sal'ira]

Ah, sarcasm. I have a hard time knowing when people are being sarcastic and when they're being serious. I apologize.

 

[DevilEyes]

Ah, sarcasm. I have a hard time knowing when people are being sarcastic and when they're being serious. I apologize.

Well, I wouldn't blame you - there are certainly people who actually do think of homosexuality as a disease... it's not always easy if you're not already familiar with the poster and their views... The opposite sometimes happens to me, I assume that a poster is joking since they couldn't seriously mean something ignorant they wrote, but they turn out to be dead serious.

 

[Pauln6]

Ah, sarcasm. I have a hard time knowing when people are being sarcastic and when they're being serious. I apologize.

Well, I wouldn't blame you - there are certainly people who actually do think of homosexuality as a disease... it's not always easy if you're not already familiar with the poster and their views... The opposite sometimes happens to me, I assume that a poster is joking since they couldn't seriously mean something ignorant they wrote, but they turn out to be dead serious.

Of course I was being dead serious. Robosexuality is a serious condition. Rust can really chafe too.

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

This question has been bothering me for quite some time. I want to know what the voices not in my head think of my question. An Andorian/Vulcan child? What do you think it would look like?

Sorta like this

 

[USS Excelsior]

What would an Orion/Andorian hybrid look like, aqua perhaps.

Anyway you can have any number of hybrids because that archaeology alien left a recording to say how they were all seeded from the same species.

 

[StarryEyed]

What would an Orion/Andorian hybrid look like, aqua perhaps.

Anyway you can have any number of hybrids because that archaeology alien left a recording to say how they were all seeded from the same species.

No, that doesn't even come close to cutting it. As I have repeated several times (though some feel justified to ignore it), evolution does not work that way. No species evolves in a vacuum. The evolution of all species is directed by their environment and their relationship to other species. You can't throw DNA strands into the primordial soup of disparate worlds and predict the outcome - unless you can see the future. Even if you could do that, it would still be impossible for species with radically different physiologies like Vulcans and Andorians to produce natural offspring - regardless of common origins.

 

[Trilian23]

Sorta like this

Finally, an objective, scientifically aware answer. I'm glad SOMEONE could get to the bottom of this damn question.

So, case closed.

Moving on: how much auxiliary transponders could a teryon phaser nuetralize if a teryon phaser could nuetralize auxiliary transponders?

Starryeyed, care to begin the discussion?

 

[Pauln6]

Sorta like this

Finally, an objective, scientifically aware answer. I'm glad SOMEONE could get to the bottom of this damn question.

So, case closed.

Moving on: how much auxiliary transponders could a teryon phaser nuetralize if a teryon phaser could nuetralize auxiliary transponders?

Starryeyed, care to begin the discussion?

9.475.

Next question?