What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

[StarryEyed]

...Unless we make the presumption that some of the humanoid species are either subspecies, or belong to the same genus.

That works for Vulcans/Romulans and MAYBE Humans/Betazeds. We already know the Vulcans and Romulans have a common origin and one might be able to make a case that the same is true with Humans and Betazeds but when you look at species like Human-Vulcan or Human-Klingon or Andorian-Vulcan or Cardassian-Bajoran, forget it. Notwithstanding the scientific illiteracy of some of the posters here, we know how genetics works and we know that natural hybrids between such disparate species is impossible. Even genetically engineered unions are hard to see.

TNG-The Chase was a nice effort to try to fix the mess they created. Unfortunately, the writers either didn't understand how evolution works or they underestimated the scientific knowledge of the typical Trek nerd. Even if there was a base commonality between all humanoid species, it would still be impossible for disparate species like Humans and Vulcans to reproduce. The physiological differences are enormous. It's not just blood chemistry - although that would be plenty enough to make Human-Vulcan Hybrids impossible. Vulcans have very-high body temperature, very-high heart rate and very-low blood pressure. All the organs would have to function completely differently. As other posters have already pointed out, Humans have FAR MORE in common with great apes than we would with Vulcans and we (thankfully) can't mate with those.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

IRL, yeah, I agree that nothing like that could ever happen. But for the purposes of the Trekiverse, I think we have to go with the "same genus" theory and assume heavy genetic engineering on the part of the Progenitors with further engineering by the affected species.

 

[StarryEyed]

IRL, yeah, I agree that nothing like that could ever happen. But for the purposes of the Trekiverse, I think we have to go with the "same genus" theory and assume heavy genetic engineering on the part of the Progenitors with further engineering by the affected species.

Ah yes, for the purpose of the Trekverse.

Fortunado: For the love of God, Montressor!

Montressor: Yes, for the love of God.

My apologies to Edgar Alan Poe.

I will acknowledge that we definitely have to turn a blind eye during much of our viewing of our beloved Trekverse. I for one, wish the need was less obvious and less often. Thus I highly discourage Vulcan-Andorian Frankensteins.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

(Ooooh, I LOVED that story, and a lot of Poe's work. A forerunner to Lovecraft, but unlike Lovecraft, not so horrifying that I can't read it without nightmares. Hm...come to think of it, maybe Poe is more of a forerunner to Hitchcock. )

In my own case I had to do a lot of story work to ensure that despite appearances, the Cardassians were more similar to other species underneath than it might appear.

But a Vulcan-Andorian hybrid...that's one that in my own writing I would definitely have to nix completely, even WITH genetic engineering.

 

[StarryEyed]

(Ooooh, I LOVED that story, and a lot of Poe's work. A forerunner to Lovecraft, but unlike Lovecraft, not so horrifying that I can't read it without nightmares.

The Cask of Amontillado didn't give you nightmares? Maybe I was wrong about hybrids; you might have some Cardassian genes after all.

Can't you imagine Andrew Robinson in the role of Montressor?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Oh, it was chilling, but not in the total freak-fest way that Lovecraft was. (There are other reasons I won't touch Lovecraft, but the scariness was a big one.) Poe I can deal with.

About those Cardassian genes...by my nonscientific poll over at TrekBBS' Misc section, apparently I push the limits of normal human heat endurance...




( )

 

[StarryEyed]

About those Cardassian genes...by my nonscientific poll over at TrekBBS' Misc section, apparently I push the limits of normal human heat endurance...
( )

Me too. I live in the Florida Keys after all.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Indeed. There is more drama and conflict in exploring the role of a hybrid in society than that of a character of a single planetary origin. And Star Trek is a drama first and foremost.

I actually don't agree with this at all. In the history of Trek we have had only one Human-Vulcan hybrid and numerous pureblood Vulcans. I don't think that the stories focusing on the pure Vulcans had less drama and conflict. In fact, only a tiny part of Spock's established history revolved around his human heritage. It's the same with Troi - why not just make her an empathic Betazoid and focus on giving her race a culture and idiosyncracies (instead of plot-busting telepathy)? It's all in the writing and I just think that half-breeds are so cliche that they can represent lazy writing.

There are also numerous ways of doing hybrids that don't involve standard interbreeding. These include rescue from an alien civilisation (Worf, or Seven), genetic transformation (Delenn, Tuvix, Lyta Alexander), disguise (Seska), body swaps/possession (Sargon, Pah Wraiths, Tokra). Generally if an alien species is interesting I don't think you need the millstone of being a hybrid to give the character drama. Trois is the classic example. She was woefully underused and her half-human heritage added no drama at all because she was a poorly conceived character.

I'll take most Spock centric stories over those focusing on Tuvok or T'Pol any day. I'd say a large part of who Spock is revolved around his hybrid status and how that impacts on his relationship with Humans and Vulcans. There in lies the potential for drama and conflict. A potential that does not exist for full Vulcans in the same way.

I'd add Odo to the list of hybrids. He was "raised" by Bajorans. I agree that if you are going to use a hybrid character don't forget the other half, otherwise just make them one or the other.

 

[Pauln6]

I also forgot Cuckoo hybrids where a species inserts its own (sometimes asexually produced) offspring into another species (Aliens, Magog).

 

[Therin of Andor]

Andorians and Bolians have (what should be) yellow, cobalt-based blood

Canonically (ENT), Andorian blood is blue.

while Vulcan have green (should be verdigris) copper-based blood.

Scientifically, copper-based blood is blue, not green.

Fan fiction also has andorians requiring 4 genders to procreate

No, that's the pro fiction from Pocket Books.

The most famous fanfic about Andorians has three genders:
http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/2009/09/summary-of-physiological-roots-of.html

and have completely different circulatory systems.

As suggested by the "ST Concordance", due to the scene in "Whom Gods Destroy" where McCoy is giving an insane Andorian inmate an intramuscular injection.

Saavik is fine as both species have a common genetic history.

And an episode of TNG, "The Chase", explained that an ancient progenitor race seeded their DNA across the galaxy, giving rise to Vulcanoids, Klingons, Cardassians and humans, among many others.

hang on - the Federation has banned genetic engineering...

To create superhumans like Khan. That's not not necessarily a total ban on assisting all hybrid births come to term.

If you don't want your aliens to be alien, then don't use aliens in the first place.

Half humans, or aliens that look and act quite human, give human audiences something to relate to. This also applies to shows like "Superman", "V", "Battlestar Galactica", "3rd Rock from the Sun", "Mork & Mindy", etc.

 

[Pauln6]

If you don't want your aliens to be alien, then don't use aliens in the first place.

Half humans, or aliens that look and act quite human, give human audiences something to relate to. This also applies to shows like "Superman", "V", "Battlestar Galactica", "3rd Rock from the Sun", "Mork & Mindy", etc.

I think you have to draw a distinction where part of the story is actually about the alien who looks human but isn't (possibly as a disguise) from stories about aliens generally. This is why I give Spock a pass - at the time, aliens pretty much looked and acted human so Spock was a revelation.

It must be hard to keep character origins fresh when writing so many episodes (another reason why I would have preferred them to focus on a more limited number of races in more detail) and hybrids allowed them to explore allegories about racism. I always thought Saavik's mixed heritage was a potential gold mine that they wasted completely as it could have given us a window into the psyche of a Romulan from an abused childhood struggling to attain emotional equilibrium.

I think they've had their day now though - there are more imaginative ways to tell the same stories in my view and I'm far more fascinated in exploring humans' interactions with other cultures. The notion that the audience can only relate to an alien if they look human or are part human could well speak to a degree of subconscious xenophobia on the part of the writers. I don't think we need to pander to that in the 21st century.

EDIT: Hey I just thought - I'm doodling an alternate universe TMP comic using screencaps and Gimp. I'll probably throw in some supporting characters from the 80s comics but with your permission I could bung Therin in as an Easter Egg. What is his rank, division, uniform colour, and post on the ship? If I get too ambitious, I might just have to cut and paste caps of Jeffrey Coombes from Enterprise.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think in the Star Trek Universe, most humanoid species are compatible. Some more than others, some less. I think real difficulties occur between humanoid and non-humanoid species (like the Horta, Species 8472, and other life-forms that aren't even remotely humanoid in shape or genetic structure (say, non carbon-based).

Dude, you're speaking about a subject you obviously know absolutely nothing about. That is never a good idea. If you have no problem with impossible creatures on Star Trek, that's fine but don't try to argue that they are actually believable. Hybrids are flat-out impossible outside of being genetically engineered and grown in a lab. That is not an opinion.

Unless we make the presumption that some of the humanoid species are either subspecies, or belong to the same genus.

I think we have to as far as the Star Trek Universe is concerned. Humanoids appear to be a very common life-form--as far as this part of the Galaxy is concerned--and it's possible that quite a few humanoid races may have evolved along similar, if not identical evolutionary paths (in a universe where you can have two exactly identical Earths in different parts of the Galaxy, this then isn't really that much of a stretch, IMO).

Trek frequently trumps scientific accuracy in lieu of dramatic necessity, so you frequently have to assume that certain things work in the Star Trek Universe that will never work in the real world (which probably accounts for most of the things we see in Trek). I know it's a difficult concept for some to understand, but there are aspects of Trek that plays by its own rules. Otherwise, you just sit there being miserable and listing all the things that are scientifically impossible.

For all intents and purposes, Humans could be very common life-forms in the Star Trek Universe and "Terrans" may simply mean Humans from Earth. Perhaps the term "humanoid" is derived from any species that is human-like, even if its appearance and internal structure is different (i.e., a bumpy-headed alien).

 

[Therin of Andor]

Cardassian-Bajorans hybrids? Two of them in fact - Ziyal, and Dukat's other half-Bajoran child, with Mika the cultist - which apparently get conceived naturally and even come as a surprise?

Canonically, the ancient Hebitians seem to have visited both Bajor and Cardassia Prime. The coffee table art book, "New Worlds, New Civilizations" has a story that suggests newly found artifacts from the Hebitians suggested they were progenitors of both races, ie. a common ancestor.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I still think Dukat was slipping drugs to Naprem and possibly even to Mika, OR taking drugs himself, that upped the chances of a successful conception, because I cannot buy that a mammalian and therapsid species could both descend that quickly from the Hebitians.

(I can say that at least in my own work, I've written it such that most of the products of rape--Cardassian on Bajoran or human--do not survive to term, and that fertility/compatibility drugs are usually in play where the pregnancy IS carried to term. Bajoran religious beliefs MIGHT be such that a Bajoran woman in that situation might even seek the treatment even under such awful circumstances.)

 

[Myasishchev]

Indeed. There is more drama and conflict in exploring the role of a hybrid in society than that of a character of a single planetary origin. And Star Trek is a drama first and foremost.

I actually don't agree with this at all. In the history of Trek we have had only one Human-Vulcan hybrid and numerous pureblood Vulcans. I don't think that the stories focusing on the pure Vulcans had less drama and conflict. In fact, only a tiny part of Spock's established history revolved around his human heritage. It's the same with Troi - why not just make her an empathic Betazoid and focus on giving her race a culture and idiosyncracies (instead of plot-busting telepathy)? It's all in the writing and I just think that half-breeds are so cliche that they can represent lazy writing.

Yes.

There are also numerous ways of doing hybrids that don't involve standard interbreeding. These include rescue from an alien civilisation (Worf, or Seven), genetic transformation (Delenn, Tuvix, Lyta Alexander), disguise (Seska), body swaps/possession (Sargon, Pah Wraiths, Tokra). Generally if an alien species is interesting I don't think you need the millstone of being a hybrid to give the character drama. Trois is the classic example. She was woefully underused and her half-human heritage added no drama at all because she was a poorly conceived character.

The really funny thing with Troi is that later they took pains to show that there is already a spectrum of ability amongst the Betazoid people, from the autism of Lon Suder to slightly above average of Lwaxana Troi to the damaging hyperpathy of Tam Elbrun. They never needed to nerf Troi by making her half-human; they just needed to say she was below average.

Of course, your mileage may vary on how interesting it is to nerf a telepath. I think Tam Elbrun would've made a pretty fun counselor.

I'll take most Spock centric stories over those focusing on Tuvok or T'Pol any day.

I agree, but the more obvious reason is that the writers on Voyager and Enterprise were often unconcerned with character--to put it charitably--and not because Spock was conceived as half-human.

I'd say a large part of who Spock is revolved around his hybrid status and how that impacts on his relationship with Humans and Vulcans. There in lies the potential for drama and conflict. A potential that does not exist for full Vulcans in the same way.

Sure it does. Human (so to speak) heart in conflict with itself, and all that noise. That doesn't depend on some special combination of DNA.

Canonically, the ancient Hebitians seem to have visited both Bajor and Cardassia Prime. The coffee table art book, "New Worlds, New Civilizations" has a story that suggests newly found artifacts from the Hebitians suggested they were progenitors of both races, ie. a common ancestor.

That's always been my favorite theory. It's hard to square it with the huge and obvious morphological differences, but I'll take that problem over the alternative any day.

 

[T'Girl]

Fan fiction also has andorians requiring 4 genders to procreate

No, that's the pro fiction from Pocket Books. The most famous fanfic about Andorians has three genders:

Correction, I know that fan fiction has Andorians with four genders because I written some. Even worked out exactly who does what to whom, and in what order. I seek out Andorian fictions. When the gender is part of the story, which isn't always, the number is usually four. Although I have read sories with just two genders. Writers choice of course.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'd say a large part of who Spock is revolved around his hybrid status and how that impacts on his relationship with Humans and Vulcans. There in lies the potential for drama and conflict. A potential that does not exist for full Vulcans in the same way.

Sure it does. Human (so to speak) heart in conflict with itself, and all that noise. That doesn't depend on some special combination of DNA.

But it gives it a hook to hang it on. And when I talk about hybrids I'm thinking of cultural as well as genetic hybrids. It's a unique situation that can provide for drama and conflict of various kinds.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Fan fiction also has andorians requiring 4 genders to procreate

No, that's the pro fiction from Pocket Books. The most famous fanfic about Andorians has three genders:

Correction, I know that fan fiction has Andorians with four genders because I written some. Even worked out exactly who does what to whom, and in what order. I seek out Andorian fictions. When the gender is part of the story, which isn't always, the number is usually four. Although I have read sories with just two genders. Writers choice of course.

I think Therin is referring to fanfic from BEFORE Pocket Books made it four--so no, that is not a "correction."

 

[Therin of Andor]

I cannot buy that a mammalian and therapsid species could both descend that quickly from the Hebitians.

Was it ever said canonically that Cardassians were actually therapsids?

Their "scales" may be more like the ridges on a Bajoran nose. Having scale-like markings doesn't make a lizard.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Correction, I know that fan fiction has Andorians with four genders because I written some. Even worked out exactly who does what to whom, and in what order. I seek out Andorian fictions. When the gender is part of the story, which isn't always, the number is usually four. Although I have read sories with just two genders. Writers choice of course.

But what dates are you looking at here? AFAIK, the four-sexes angle derived from the pro novels, commencing with the "DS9: Avatar" duology, and based on Data's brief quote about Andorian weddings in "Data's Day". The Lesiey Fish material dates back to the mid 70s. Many of her cohort of fanfic writers used her three genders concept over many years, and the Pocket folk deliberately avoided reading any of that "fanon" material to ensure they weren't overly influenced.

If you use a four-sexed paradigm in your fanfic, did you conceive of it independently, or did you extrapolate from the discussions generated by the pro fiction's take on Andorian reproduction?

By the way, to get back to the original question, an early Andorian hybrid from the fanfic turned pro fiction:

Andorian Doctor Shona Exar was a female biologist with twin sons in the short story Ni Var by Claire Gabriel, Star Trek: The New Voyages 1, Bantam, 1976). The boys' physiologies reflected their parents' mixed heritage; Shona's husband, Albar, was a rectangular-headed, red-skinned Fornaxian. The boys had purple skin, black hair and Andorian antennae, but they were complete opposites in personality. It was revealed in the story that the scientists had produced a single hybrid child by natural means. Internal incompatibilities made it necessary to "twin" him with experimental 23rd century technology. Someone then tries to use the technology on Spock. (It reminds me of the B'Elanna Torres episode of VOY where the Vidiians split her into a human and a Klingon, but it dates back to the 70s.)