I'm not saying the show can't resonate with a lot of people. Personally I'd say that Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for example, is a much better show, that's much more true to life, but again it's subjective.
<SNIP>
And honestly I'm also kinda confused why a lot of the shows people often laud as "brilliant" have such ugly premises or deal with such base subjects.
I mean, isn't the premise of
Buffy the Vampire Slayer somewhat ugly and dealing with base subjects? It's a program about a young woman who is coerced by a cabal of old men into going out every night to murder re-animated corpses that lust for blood.
Like I'm not talking Discovery here. But Sporanos, why would I ever want to watch a show about a mobster?
Honestly, gangster stories function to allow for artistic exploration of themes and ideas in the same way that most genres that deviate in some way from conventional Realism/Naturalism: they allow for the use of a sense of distance in examining universal human themes, allowing the audience to view those themes from POVs they might not have considered before.
I don't want to speak on
The Sopranos in detail because, while I'm familiar enough with it to be able to discern that there's a great deal of depth and sophistication to its writing, acting, direction, and thematic content, I never enjoyed it enough to subject it to a deeper analysis to let me discern the specifics of those aspects. But right off the bat, one area in which
The Sopranos works as a mechanism to examine universal human themes through a distancing lens is in the question of Tony Soprano's mental health and his relationship with is mother.
Sopranos creator David Chase has often said that Tony's relationship with his abusive mother was based on his relationship with his own emotionally abusive mother; he's commented that people may not be interested in the mental health problems and maternal relationship problems of a normal, conventional man -- but make the main character a big, scary, tough Mafioso, and suddenly people become invested in the relationship, because there's a seeming contrast between Tony's image as a dangerous and powerful man and the reality of the emotionally crippling effects of the abuse he's suffered. In fact, the earliest
Sopranos episodes were sold almost as though the show were a comedy, emphasizing the idea of Tony the Mafia boss suffered a debilitating anxiety attack and needed to go to therapy.
Honestly, this is similar to how a show like
Star Trek functions. The elemental example would be TOS's "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" -- the theme we all know from real life is presented through a science fictional lens through the plot device of the aliens that are both black on one side and white on the other with their respective sides reversed, using audience expectations of fictional alien homogeneity to subvert expectations and look at the broader issue through new eyes. In
The Sopranos, familial abuse and mental health are presented through the gangster story lens through the plot device of Tony needing to get therapy because of his abusive relationship with his mother. Science fiction maybe pushes the distancing effect further than the gangster genre, but the function is basically the same.
There are other reasons people are fascinated by gangster stories, of course.
The Godfather is considered one of the greatest films of all time for many reasons; it works on many different levels. On one level, the film is an exploration of the age-old theme of moral corruption: we watch as the morally innocent Michael gradually allows himself to be consumed by the lawless violence of the criminal underworld, first by taking revenge for unjustified attacks on his father, and then culminating in his masterminding a massacre of his rivals in the underworld as he assumes his father's mantle as "the Godfather." Stories about corruption are perennially important in human culture because they help us analyze our own world and think about the ways in which real people, and even we ourselves, can be susceptible to corruption.
The Godfather is also considered great because it is a work of political art. The film makes it very clear that the existence of the American Mafia is itself a reaction to forms of oppression to which Italian immigrants were subjected, and to the failures and lack of popular legitimacy of the Italian state in the home country. The opening scene makes the political themes very clear:
[I said:
The Godfather[/I]]
BONASERA: I believe in America. America has made my fortune. And I raised my daughter in the American fashion. I gave her freedom, but -- I taught her never to dishonor her family. She found a boyfriend; not an Italian. She went to the movies with him; she stayed out late. I didn't protest. Two months ago, he took her for a drive, with another boyfriend. They made her drink whiskey. And then they tried to take advantage of her. She resisted. She kept her honor. So they beat her, like an animal. <SNIP> I -- I went to the police, like a good American. These two boys were brought to trial. The judge sentenced them to three years in prison -- suspended sentence. Suspended sentence! They went free that very day! I stood in the courtroom like a fool. And those two bastard, they smiled at me. Then I said to my wife, "For justice, we must go to Don Corleone."
VITO CORLEONE: Why did you go to the police? Why didn't you come to me first?
BONASERA: What do you want of me? Tell me anything. But do what I beg you to do.
VITO CORLEONE: What is that? [Bonasera gets up to whisper his request into Don Corleone's ear] That I cannot do.
BONASERA: I'll give you anything you ask.
VITO CORLEONE: We've known each other many years, but this is the first time you came to me for counsel, for help. I can't remember the last time that you invited me to your house for a cup of coffee, even though my wife is godmother to your only child. But let's be frank here: you never wanted my friendship. And you were afraid to be in my debt.
BONASERA: I didn't want to get into trouble.
VITO CORLEONE: I understand. You found paradise in America, had a good trade, made a good living. The police protected you; and there were courts of law. And you didn't need a friend of me. But now you come to me and you say, "Don Corleone, give me justice!" But you don't ask with respect. You don't offer friendship. You don't even think to call me Godfather. Instead, you come into my house on the day my daughter is to be married, and you ask me to do murder, for money.
BONASERA: I ask you for justice.
VITO CORLEONE: That is not justice; your daughter is still alive.
The entire film is preoccupied with this question of justice, of how you obtain justice when the state has failed -- and of what, exactly, makes the Mafia different from the state. As Michael notes in the film, his father Vito considers himself just as important, and just as legitimate a source of power, as any mayor, governor, or senator;
The Godfather essentially views the Mafia as a state within a state, formed through the failures of the so-called "legitimate" government.
Indeed, yet another gangster film,
Mystic River, makes this question of what constitutes a "legitimate" state even clearer. Though whereas
The Godfather is preoccupied with the idea that the formation of the Mafia is an understandable response to the failures of the legitimate state,
Mystic River is concerned with what happens when both institutions fail. When a former mobster's (Jimmy) daughter is murdered, a cop (Sean) who used to be his childhood friend is unable to find a suspect to arrest. Sean is himself disillusioned with his role in society: “I’m tired of wishing things made sense. I’m tired of caring about some dead girl, and there’s just gonna be another one after her. Sending killers to jail is just sending them where they’ve been heading all their dumb, pathetic lives. The dead are still dead.” Jimmy concludes that a third childhood friend, the mentally damaged Dave, likely killed his daughter; he has his former friend murdered in retribution, saying to Dave as he drags him to his death, "We bury our sins out here, Dave. We wash them clean." It later comes out that Dave was innocent; a stranger had murdered Jimmy's daughter. But his wife insists that his actions were righteous: “Their daddy’s a king. And a king knows what to do and does it. Even when it’s hard. And their daddy will do whatever he has to for those he loves. And that’s all that matters. Because everyone is weak, Jimmy. Everyone but us. We will never be weak. And you, you could rule this town."
And in
The Sopranos, we arguably find a synthesis of both of these basic themes of gangster stories -- corruption vs. political legitimacy. The series finale infamously ends with Tony's therapist terminating treatment, due to her belief that he is an incorrigible sociopath. Tony believes he has come on top in a short gang war, and he's got an FBI agent in his pocket. His family, who used to object to his position in the Mafia, have all come around and embraced the material benefits Tony's position as a Mafia boss gives them: material security and wealth (his wife), industry connections to start his career (his son), and a position as a lawyer (his daughter). They all gather to meet him at a diner. As Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'" plays, we see one family member after another arrive, and we see other diner customers eye Tony suspiciously. Tony will spend the rest of his life looking over his back, wondering if the rando he sees across the room is gonna get him. But his family have been corrupted along with him; all have embraced their dark wealth. The scene cuts to black. The episode's title? "Made in America" -- a clear statement about U.S. culture's worship of wealth and idealization of violence and power.
... I honestly didn't mean to write an essay about the gangster genre, but hopefully you can get a sense now of what it is people see in a story about a mobster.
So if it can be a permutation, then Orville does count?
I've often thought that there's nothing about
The Orville that necessarily precludes it from being a
Star Trek series if the background details of the show were changed. The fact that
Star Trek restricted itself to one-hour dramas for so long is sad, and I'm glad that we finally have
Star Trek exploring other formats like the sitcom in
Lower Decks.
To me, the important aspect is the exploration of themes, and an aspiration to tackle though societal debates, from a humanist lens. If it's going to be mindless space pew-pew filled with clichés and dialogue written by 5 year olds ("I like feeling feelings"), like Discovery,
That description of DIS goes beyond being a difference of opinion; it is flat-out false. DIS makes its concern with humanist themes and questions of morality clear from the very opening shot. You may not like how it's
executed -- though I question your taste if you do -- but to characterize it as "mindless space pew-pew" is flat-out false.
