What was Roddenberry's state of mind in TNG S3?

[RAMA]

There are a few comedies that got away with commentary because they were comedies (as trek does with scifi) but in general, there are few dramas that even approach STNG's and Star Trek in general's liberalism. There's no hint of conservatism in STNG whatsoever. TOS was way more conservative by comparison but "liberal" for TV in it's day. Of course, the world around it was changing much faster than TV

It always surprises me when there are even conservative Trekkies out there(but they are almost always from the TOS era). It's kind of like religion. Theists can excuse almost any contradiction by ignoring it, same with Trek. Just two days ago, there was a discussion of FB about the Borg and AI based on an Elon Musk posting I made, and someone flat out said there was no such thing as evolution. I kind of had to collect my thoughts and absorb the stupidity before moving on.

Edit: I just realized you're solely talking about the show being "conservative", ie: not taking chances...as opposed to the political usage. I kind of thought you were suggesting both. As I said before, I agree the show could have taken more chances with individual plots, but collectively the show took chances with a general viewpoint, one that's much broader than shows like MASH or All in the Family--both comedies--could accomplish.

RAMA

No offense, because I know how much you love TNG, but it wasn't doing anything that hadn't already been done better, and more openly on other shows. Which is the point. By the time TNG got to it, it was doing things already done, but trying to hide them so as to not upset what was becoming a very conservative audience.

It was a franchise cash cow, and Paramount wasn't going to do anything to rock the boat.



I've seen racier K-Mart ads.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I am conservative and not from ToS' era. I'm a staunch Republican, in terms of the idealogy of less government and more business opportunities. Nevertheless, I hate the choices for this election - both party's candidates are completely, equally unacceptable. TNG's 'politics' never bothered me, as such, for the simple and obvious reason that STAR TREK has never investigated any topic it's ever brought up.

It hints at ... it suggests ... it dances around ... borrows icons from ... but where it stops serving the needs of the story, it stops being relevant to whatever episode it's in. The same way that TOS' movies dismissed ALL of the philosophical, political and technological implications of Genesis - only needing it to get Kirk & Co. into and out of mischief, then it's just forgotten about.

The messages that TNG did have about "Bettering Yourself," "Embracing Change" and promoting peace are no different than what Roman Catholicism has believed in and taught. And where TNG veers away into La La Land, with the "no money" or economics fantasy, how is that ever going to inform an actual discussion about anything? There's nothing to even take umbrage at. I watch TNG for nostalgia and entertainment purposes. Politics have never entered into it ... anybody's politics.

 

[Tenacity]

It always surprises me when there are even conservative Trekkies out there

No need to be surprised, the world (and Star Trek fandom) is absolutely filled with people who don't share whatever positions and opinions any of us hold dear.

 

[drew]

I always feel like whenever some random new female character is introduced, she's supposed to be like one of James Bond's love interests. even in TOS. she's there for her sexiness and her presence usually gets the guys acting strangely. often, the music even changes tune to a more dreamy feel. the approach is antiquated and shameless but I find it really funny how they just blatantly objectify women like that.

the last episode I watched was "Dagger of the Mind," do you remember how Kirk visits the prison colony with the assigned professional psychologist? right off the bat it's hinted at that they once got involved with each other somehow at a christmas party. when they beam down to the prison colony, Kirk is staring at her even as his body slowly vanishes. he's brainwashed into believing that he's in love with her as a plot point and ends up smooching her. at one point, she must crawl through the ventilation ducts on her hands and knees in order to turn off the generator and save Kirk. the fact that they worked that into the plot is HILARIOUS to me. it's an obvious excuse to get this woman who's been set up as a sex symbol with every bit of dialogue related to her up to this point on her hands and knees! sorry to any women reading, but I find dirty old perverted men and their simple goals extremely funny. you'd think they'd mature by then! nope, they come out of pussy and spend the rest of their meaningless lives in an attempt to get straight back to it, lol. even if it didn't anger feminists I'd still find it funny but that's icing on the cake. it's not like the writers are aware of that, their blissful ignorance is only more icing. does anyone else find the objectification endlessly amusing in how pathetic it is, its shamelessness and ignorance to the point of innocence?

 

[Lance]

^ That's Dr Helen Noel, and she's usually held up as being one of TOS' (very rare) examples of female empowerment: not only in her being unafraid of being quite forward about her own sexuality, which was quite the taboo at the time, but also for that very scene you cite, in which she actually gets to be an action hero(ine) and saves the day. Another very rare example for *any* female character in TOS. Or, indeed, for any character not played by William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy or DeForest Kelley.

I'm not saying TOS is free of the exploitation you describe. Far from it, I think you are accurate. For all its preaching about equality, it seldom allowed its female characters to be nearly so proactive. But Helen Noel is actually an exception. I admit she may not look like it to our jaded 21st century eyes, but by TOS' own standards she's one of the more progressive female characters we ever saw, and there's evidence of her popularity among sections of the female fanbase in the 1970s too, for all these reasons. So, she's perhaps not the best example to use.

 

[Doug Otte]

Agreed, Lance. And, Noel is a professional whose expertise Kirk relies upon and respects, despite their previous adult relationship.

 

[TommyR01D]

It always surprises me when there are even conservative Trekkies out there.

There have been several threads on this topic before.

 

[RAMA]

I laugh when I see people suggesting STNG verring into "la la land" because the no money scenario you called fantasy is called "post-scarcity economy" and we are actually likely to have such a system replace capitalism (or indeed is a product of and an evolution of capitalism) within 30-50 years. Far sooner than Trek predicted.

I also quibble at the idea Christianity embraces change...perhaps outwardly more than most religions, but in reality it would have you believe millennia old dogma and apply it to modern life. You are to accept what these ancient authors said and many cases literally. In the USA, 40% of people still believe in creationism. To many the Earth is literally 6,000 years old and so on.

On the other hand Trek has indeed said: you have the freedom to do what you want within reason, but Religion as practiced by most men is dangerous, self-defeating and outdated. Those are the creator's belles translated to screen. This is of course ignored by fans who don't hold that belief.

RAMA

I am conservative and not from ToS' era. I'm a staunch Republican, in terms of the idealogy of less government and more business opportunities. Nevertheless, I hate the choices for this election - both party's candidates are completely, equally unacceptable. TNG's 'politics' never bothered me, as such, for the simple and obvious reason that STAR TREK has never investigated any topic it's ever brought up.

It hints at ... it suggests ... it dances around ... borrows icons from ... but where it stops serving the needs of the story, it stops being relevant to whatever episode it's in. The same way that TOS' movies dismissed ALL of the philosophical, political and technological implications of Genesis - only needing it to get Kirk & Co. into and out of mischief, then it's just forgotten about.

The messages that TNG did have about "Bettering Yourself," "Embracing Change" and promoting peace are no different than what Roman Catholicism has believed in and taught. And where TNG veers away into La La Land, with the "no money" or economics fantasy, how is that ever going to inform an actual discussion about anything? There's nothing to even take umbrage at. I watch TNG for nostalgia and entertainment purposes. Politics have never entered into it ... anybody's politics.

 

[RAMA]

No need to be surprised, the world (and Star Trek fandom) is absolutely filled with people who don't share whatever positions and opinions any of us hold dear.

Here's where the surprise comes in: Star Trek is already a niche show. Supposedly the viewership is smaller and rabid because we're more imaginative and intelligent and keep up to date on things. Turns out that isn't the case and probably hasn't been the case since the 70 or 80s when many fans were post-hippy era progressive thinkers. There was also a time when trek fans were 50%+ women. That is also no longer the case.

Considering such origins though and the fact that many fans are older, I'd have expected fewer conservatives, but they certainly are out there.

I am going to keep my progressive views and those are also the most in line with Trek, and it's ideas are ones that I enjoy and usually agree with. I'm not sure what conservatives get out of it...a pseudo-military adventure? Kirk era posturing? Who knows? Maybe with Trump around they'll watch it for the neo-Nazis in Patterns of Force.

RAMA

 

[2takesfrakes]

I laugh when I see people suggesting STNG verring into "la la land" because the no money scenario you called fantasy is called "post-scarcity economy" and we are actually likely to have such a system replace capitalism (or indeed is a product of and an evolution of capitalism) within 30-50 years. Far sooner than Trek predicted.

I also quibble at the idea Christianity embraces change...perhaps outwardly more than most religions, but in reality it would have you believe millennia old dogma and apply it to modern life. You are to accept what these ancient authors said and many cases literally. In the USA, 40% of people still believe in creationism. To many the Earth is literally 6,000 years old and so on.

On the other hand Trek has indeed said: you have the freedom to do what you want within reason, but Religion as practiced by most men is dangerous, self-defeating and outdated. Those are the creator's belles translated to screen. This is of course ignored by fans who don't hold that belief.

RAMA

More than anything else, the Roman Catholic Church - to which I belong - wants to succeed. And, in order to succeed, the Faithful receive a superior education to give them an edge in Today's Market. Where Religion, itself, is taught as a subject, there is some of this "believe in these things, blindly" kind of an attitude (for example, the Eucharist being the body of Christ), but in the main, it was tolerant of varying viewpoints, within reason.

You must remember, also, that The Catholic Church has many sects within it. Some are hard core in their traditional beliefs, whilst others are footloose and celebratory, in their worship. Many Catholics believe that what they've fallen into is the totality of Catholicism, when it's not. Yes, the words of the Bible - including The New Testament - are, indeed ancient. But so are the rivers from which we continue to draw our water. So is the air which we need to breath. So is the land which we own. The ancient word continues to see to our needs, in a similar manner.

It's been very rare for STAR TREK to address that point. "Bread & Circuses," for example, actually mentions Christ, specifically. And that Uhura is the one who makes the observation, it makes one wonder if this wasn't a nod towards Martin Luthor King. Who was a STAR TREK fan steeped in Christianity and still much honoured and celebrated in this country. Even more surprisingly, in TMP, Spock notes that V'GER needs a belief system to evolve. STAR TREK rails on about Humanism, as if it's the only game in town. Well, it's not and it won't be. "There is more in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."