What was Gowron's problem?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

When we first meet the guy in TNG, he's involved in a power struggle where he bribes, threatens, and apparently also assassinates the previous Chancellor.

I think people tend to forget that all the evidence, scanty as it was, pointed to Gowron being responsible for the poisoning because of what happened with Duras later in the episode...

I don't think so. Remember when the question of poisoning K'mpec was first brought up, Gowron immediately and instinctively reacts with shock and anger. Duras doesn't do anything, just sits there stone-faced. It's clear that Gowron was still honorable enough to not resort to methods like that.

The Duras family, on the other hand, was heavily involved with the Romulans, so of course poisoning would be totally within their wheelhouse.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It never occurred to me that we never see proof that Duras was the one who poisoned Km'pec. It's just heavily implied, or at least assumed that the audience will come to that conclusion since he was the one working for the Rommies.

But even at the height of Gowron's asshatedness, he would always rather fight people one on one than assassinate them in the shadows. Even in House of Quark, he was shocked that a Klingon would resort to any method other than slicing somebody up in combat to destroy his enemies. It just doesn't seem like his MO.

 

[Timo]

Or then he just cleverly nurtures that impression...

It's sort of unlikely that anybody falling short of Duras' standards of treachery could ever seriously challenge him for the chancellorship. And Duras would have benefited from K'Mpec staying in power, since it was under K'Mpec's leadership that his father was able to grab so much power and hold on to it. As we saw, death of the fat Chancellor ultimately led to the demise of the House of Duras.

Okay, so perhaps Duras poisoned the already weakening old bastard before anybody else had time to do it. But his House was known for working from the shadows - why would he personally try and get the chancellorship and essentially reveal all his cards? If somebody else hastened K'Mpec's death, then Duras would be forced to act, having no time to groom a successor puppet ruler...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Firefly]

I think that like most Klingons, Gowron is not that honorable

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Or then he just cleverly nurtures that impression...

He put himself in mortal danger when he didn't have to in multiple occasions, though. In Apocalypse Rising he had no need to fight Worf when he could have had his men vaporize him. In Tacking Into the Wind he could have also avoided the fight Worf was baiting him into without losing the appearance of honor just by belittling Worf's. Not to mention that when Kahless was threatening his power base, his instinct was to eviscerate him with a batt'leth, not to secretly have him done away with.

It's true Km'pec helped Duras' family get into power but Km'pec wouldn't have allowed the Empire to become a puppet state for the Romulans. Duras wasn't counting on Km'pec outsourcing the throne arbitration to a human, if he hadn't done that he would have easily become Chancellor.

While not confirmed, it certainly seemed like the writers' intention for the audience to come to the conclusion that Duras was the poisoner.

 

[Timo]

He put himself in mortal danger when he didn't have to in multiple occasions, though

I guess my point was that responding to challenges in the politically expedient way (showing classic foolish courage) would not necessarily mean Gowron wouldn't use different solutions for dealing with other problems. Rather than consistent, he would be efficient: dishonorably assassinating whenever he could get away with it, showing excessive bravado when he couldn't.

The general public would of course mistake the displays of "honor" for a consistent personality trait, helping Gowron get away with his shadier dealings and realpolitik.

Not to mention that when Kahless was threatening his power base, his instinct was to eviscerate him with a batt'leth, not to secretly have him done away with.

It looked to me Gowron did some cold computing there. He was a man in his prime, and a decent fighter; the Kahless figure in front of him was as the society has iconized him, an established leader of actually rather advanced years. Defeating "Kahless" in a swordfight would immediately swing the balances to Gowron's advantage, and no slaying would actually be necessary (and didn't take place!).

While not confirmed, it certainly seemed like the writers' intention for the audience to come to the conclusion that Duras was the poisoner.

No disagreement there. But from the heroes' point of view, this was very much a choice of the lesser evil. And "evil" here would be measured from their POV, meaning a man who ate babies raw but supported the alliance would be better than the honorable fighter who despised the UFP. It would be fun to think that they glossed over Gowron's likely crimes because they had to...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Well, in Picard's situation he was fully intent on taking off his Federation hat and interpreting his role as arbiter completely within the bounds of Klingon law. The only thing that made it permissible in their eyes to support one side or the other in a way that considers Federation interests was the influence of a hostile third party. If it had been a strictly internal conflict, Picard would have been forced to support 'KELGAR, RAPER OF INNOCENCE' if he was the one with the best legal claim to the position. And even then the only intervention they considered permissible was blocking supply lines from outside Klingon space and informing the Klingons of proven facts.

 

[Praxius]

Did anyone else think it was kind of sudden and out of left field when Gowron became dishonorable? He was never the absolute best chancellor, what with plunging the Empire into war with Cardassia, but I always got the impression that his intentions were always good. Actually I liked the twist where we all thought he was a changeling, but that wasn't true. I also thought his dismissal of Worf was really sudden and unlike his character in TNG. Maybe Gowron was kind of a tragic character who lost his way, but it must have happened off screen.

Just jumping in with my own view on the OP:

Gowron was never dishonourable. He did a few things that were in his best interests, but he was Klingon Through and Through.

He did everything Klingon by the book up until the end.

He didn't want anything to do with Worf from the get-go until there was a chance Duras was a traitor and doing things un-Klingon while framing Worf..... but even then he still didn't want anything to do with Worf because he was dishonoured and not a part of the Empire anymore.

Skipping through, as we all know how that all unfolded and Gowron became friends with Worf, we jump to DS9.

Worf understood his invasion of Cardassia and it was simply Gowron bringing back the old Klingon ways of expansion and conquest, which was desired by many Klingons for a long time.

The other factor that was in play at this time was that Gowron also had a Changling posing as his closest advisor and General & whispering in his ear all sorts of manipulations wrapped around Klingon Tradition and thinking.....

Even during all of this, Gowron knew his Klingon Roots and they still dictated his actions, which was evident when Worf quoted Kahless to him to stop the battle between DS9 and his fleet... despite the Changelings's protests.

Bythe time the Changeling was found out, Gowron knew Klingons still needed to finish what they started and couldn't just stop.

This mentality kept going through to the bitter end.

In the last days of his life, although he was still sticking to his Klingon Roots, his personal agenda & chances of legendary songs sung of his name were being compromised by Martok's victories and thus, jealousy was setting in. This in turn made him send Martok on more risky missions to either get rid of him or at least take him out of commission and pulled back from the front lines due to injury.

What also was evident was that Gowron was starting to take on a lot more than what he could handle and it was showing in his decisions.

Despite all of this and his flaws, He took on Worf's challenge like a Klingon and he died like a Klingon... though he didn't really have a choice in the matter as Worf pretty much went at him right away. It was a good battle and Gowron fought well.

Whenever he was challenged by another Klingon regarding his rule, he never excused away from the challenge, he never blithered on about not taking the challenge.... as soon as he knew he was being challenged, he had the knife out, his eyes bulging with that odd smile and he'd fight without a second thought.

He wasn't perfect and he had many flaws, but he was never dishonourable.

While not confirmed, it certainly seemed like the writers' intention for the audience to come to the conclusion that Duras was the poisoner.

Well it simply couldn't have been anybody else.

It's the same sort of tactic the Duras Sisters pulled when they sent Assassins after Picard..... when they sent guys to Shiv Worf's brother..... when they sent guys to ambush, beat and kidnap Worf himself.

The Duras family wanted absolute power in the Empire because they could forever keep their family's dishonour a secret, or at least long enough until they changed how things run in the Empire and eventually bring about the alliance with the Romulans, whom would further ensure their House remained in absolute power as they would be their noose around the Klingon Empire.

Poisoning the Chancellor fits right into the puzzle, especially Duras's reaction compared to Gowron's when it was found out that he was poisoned.

At the same time you have one of Duras's men become a suicide bomber.

Either way, it certainly wasn't Gowron who did it.

Yes, Gowron did try to "Negotiate a deal that benefitted him and K'Ehleyr to win power" ...... one could also call it a "Bribe"...... but trying to Bribe someone is not the same as killing someone with poison like some snake.

 

[Timo]

It seems particularly weak to absolve one Klingon of something on the basis that another Klingon does it a lot. It's far more likely that it's simply a common character trait for Klingon politicians to poison, bomb and delegate assassinations a lot.

I see no real difference between Duras and Gowron. Both were ready to sell out the Empire to an outside force when it seemed advantageous: Duras to the Romulans, Gowron to the Feds. Both were already highly positioned in a system Worf came to consider thoroughly rotten when they began vying for chancellorship. Both were young and dynamic, heirless fools compared with the long-surviving K'Mpec, but were probably headed along the same path anyway.

Gowron was never dishonourable.

Well, when you are the boss and get to define honor, that's a given.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Destructor]

I think that like most Klingons, Gowron is not that honorable

I think this is the thing, here, like, Gowron himself wasn't the problem, he was a symptom of an endemic problem with Klingon culture. Kurn coming to the Enterprise in S2 kicked off a nine-year story about a culture that declared "Honour above all." while all the while being a corrupt, scheming, devious, backstabbing culture, run by dishonorable men. That's what Dax was saying to Worf just before he killed Gowron- he's the last honorable Klingon because he believes in the ideal they've been spouting all these year- but he's the only one who does, everyone else talks big about honour while acting dishonourably behind closed doors. Killing Gowron was the first step in tearing down the foundation, but the basic problems in Klingon culture still remained.

 

[Hypaspist]

I think that describes it accurately. Gowron is an experienced player of the game, while the lower ranking warriors on the front lines must believe in their system because of their circumstance. Worf is even more extreme, having grown up on the legends of the Empire but not living inside of it - he is like Cato, believing in the ideal. Gowron (and most of the others) are more like Pompey or Caesar.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Gowron is probably the most realistic politician in Star Trek.

'Klingon honor' is the Klingon version of 'Traditional family values'. You gain political traction by talking about it and projecting it but you don't actually practice it.

 

[Timo]

In practical terms, though, "honor" means much less and is inherently much more contradictory than "traditional family values". It can easily be argued that treason is honorable, or that following of orders is dishonorable; just insert proper buzzwords such as "patriotism" or "cowardice" at the right slots and black becomes white. It's much more difficult to say that it's okay for the wife to cheat, or that it's not okay for the husband to beat the kids when they need it, as the necessary buzzwords like "equality" or "compassion" are not part of the traditionalism canon themselves.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Klingon honor is pretty specific in the way you deal with things. It's not nearly as vague as invoking the word on Earth.

Half the politicians that most preach traditional family values have been caught with mistresses, and in a few cases, underage lovers.

And 'Traditional family values' don't just say don't cheat on your spouse. They say that all families must aspire to a specific structure with a father who is the breadwinner, a mother who runs the house, and children. If you don't want to get married, if you don't want to have children, if the woman puts career before family, if you are not heterosexual, you have violated traditional family values.

 

[Timo]

Klingon honor is pretty specific in the way you deal with things. It's not nearly as vague as invoking the word on Earth.

Accepting phrases like "Nothing is more honorable than victory" sort of preempts that...

Say, Klingons swear they don't sneak or take prisoners - and then they go ahead with both things. It's not as if they think they can get away with it once by killing all the witnesses: they quite publicly build entire fleets of invisible ships for sneaky attacks!

Klingon honor seems to play a minimal role in their daily lives. Even Worf, infamously learning Klingonhood on a correspondence course and believing in many a silly thing, never really feels bad about having been captured alive in "In Purgatory's Shadow" or the like. If Worf fails to practice what he preaches, what Klingon could possibly follow the (unwritten?) rules?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^" The Klingons are as diverse a people as any. Some of them are strong, and some of them are weak. " --Jadzia Dax

Some of those things are more generalizations than hard truths.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

Klingon honor seems to play a minimal role in their daily lives. Even Worf, infamously learning Klingonhood on a correspondence course and believing in many a silly thing, never really feels bad about having been captured alive in "In Purgatory's Shadow" or the like. If Worf fails to practice what he preaches, what Klingon could possibly follow the (unwritten?) rules?

Timo Saloniemi

This made me actually LOL. I don't think it's really emphasized how true this is about Worf. Jadzia pointed it out to him once, he's never actually lived among Klingons, yet he swears he knows everything about them. And on paper, he does. But in practice, not so much.

It would be like growing up in another country, reading all the US History books you could find and then using that as your guide for how to be an American. You'd get a kick-ass score on the citizenship test, but that's about it.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

It's not the getting captured alive that Word considers dishonoable.
It's giving into his fate as a prisoner that would be.
He could be detained, but he would not accept futility of resistance.
He'd rather die, then admit defeat in the ring.

But he was appaled by the Klingons in the Romulan prison camp having become "domesticated".

 

[trekshark]

Gowron had the crazy eyes, not to mention the weird accent. He always creeped me out. Probably Worf too.

I just re-watched the scene where Worf fights him for the last time and his eyes were really bugging out and there were some close ups of them

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

In the end, Worf thought enough of Gowron to perform the death howl for him, so I guess Gowron still died with honor even after all the stunts he pulled.

Which raises an interesting point: although the death howl is supposed to be a warning to the heavens that a warrior is coming, I wonder if the gesture is as much about the honor of the people observing it as it is the person who has died--much as funerals and memorial services are meant for both the decreased and his/her family and friends.

Perhaps Worf performed the howl because he believed it would satisfy his own honor as much as Gowron's. OTOH, perhaps he chose to remember Gowron has the man who had once been his friend.

--Sran