What the frell happened?

[James Cole]

I… suppose none in this thread has watched other Terry Matalas’s other work— 12 Monkeys, again why I trust him. Stashwick played a similar role except that he started out as a flat out villain that through the course of 4 seasons became a heroic figure. By the end everyone in fandom loved Stashwick’s character.

It's hard for a 12M fan to be introduced to Shaw and not have preconceptions carry over from his prior character. We'd be much more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt than say Admiral Sheer-Fucking-Hubris, and more easily pick up on foreshadowing.

More of a reference to how a writer does his work. It’s something I noticed with showrunners, if you’ve observed their work long enough, you can get a sense of how they tell a story. What themes they find interesting and whether you vibe or like their style.

&

I generally don't go looking for authors or producers and they don't get the benefit of the doubt from me.

Peak TV and the streaming boom leaves people with far more potentially interesting content than they can possibly watch. If I really liked a showrunner's past show, or a director's past film, their next project or back catalog usually ends up much higher on my to check out list.

If I have to watch a bunch of unrelated shows in a filmmaker's oeuvre in order for one of them to make total sense, then it's not a good story. It should be able to stand up on its own without having to depend on what I may or may not know about Twelve Monkeys.

&

i mean… you don’t need to, that’s just what I do. You do you. It just helps me to contextualize things, and I honestly didn’t need to know 12 Monkeys to enjoy Sesaon 3 — its just my kind of Trek show. I just liked the ship and crew story to it all, and I enjoyed the pace It went a little wonky trying to artificially extend why Jack was a MacGuffin everyone was after. But I enjoyed how the relationships played out this season it didn’t feel (to me) ham fisted or dropped in suddenly. It’s also not a perfect season, they could still improve things, if they do get a chance to do an Ent-G show.

Limited time to plan the story arc, even more limited budget to carry it out. So while 12M is a separate show, someone that's seen it and liked it is bound to have it back of mind as a frame of reference while watching something structurally and thematically similar.

Unless I'm missing something that 12 Monkeys is secretly a Star Trek show and no one told anyone?

Well, it is very Star Trek adjacent. Depending on which aspects of Star Trek you like, 12M might have a strong overlap. Much like THE ORVILLE, FOR ALL MANKIND, or going way back to people that always say HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER or MASTER AND COMMANDER are great "Star Trek" movies without being Star Trek.

You can also have Star Trek adjacent shows that just aren't that good... SEAQUEST, TERRA NOVA...

 

[The Wormhole]

I liked Terra Nova.

 

[Tuskin38]

I was sad that Terra Nova was canceled

 

[Phily B]

Salvaged from what?

An unlikeable depressive nonsensical character who blamed and hated Picard for reasons that were hard to comprehend. She was written that way, it wasn't the actors fault. A character with no real purpose to the overall plot other than to create cheap drama, one who was calling Picard "JL" which come across as fucking weird as well, one we were unfamiliar with who treated our main character who we love like shit. It was the same with a lot of the other characters, just psychopaths to the left and sociopaths to the right.

 

[fireproof78]

SEAQUEST,

Rude.

 

[Lord Garth]

I watched Picard Season 3 and obviously enjoyed it without having seen The 12 Monkeys. Then I watched The 12 Monkeys and it added a little to it, but not a lot. I liked PIC S3 on its own. So it was more of a case of, "If you liked this, you might like that over there!" Which I did.

OTOH, Picard Season 2 was something I had mixed thoughts about. Seeing The 12 Monkeys gave me a better idea of what PIC S2 was trying to go for, but S2 remains the season of Picard I like less than S1 and S3.

Just want to clear the air here. As someone who is both a new 12M Fan and someone who watched PIC S3 without having already seen it.

If you actually want to check out The 12 Monkeys, have at it. Don't let some internet argument stop you from watching a good show. But also, don't think you're watching it because of an internet argument. I recommend the show. But I'd also recommend the show to anyone I know IRL. If you like time-travel, if you like Back to the Future (who doesn't?), you'll like this.

 

[James Cole]

Rude.

&

I was sad that Terra Nova was canceled

I bought the former on DVD and then Blu-ray (from Germany, years before it was available in the US), and the latter I saved off my TiVo and later "bought" off Amazon Prime (well, indefinite rental until Disney sees fit to snatch it away into the vault). So I do like both well enough...

One interesting thing about these series was the high degree of studio / network interference into their development and initial production. Almost too big to fail. Very very similar to the early years of NuTrek.

 

[fireproof78]

So I do like both well enough...

They're just not very good.

I prefer Seaquest over TNG.

And that still doesn't explain 12 Monkeys as being "Trek Ajacent. "

 

[Nerys Myk]

An unlikeable depressive nonsensical character who blamed and hated Picard for reasons that were hard to comprehend. She was written that way, it wasn't the actors fault. A character with no real purpose to the overall plot other than to create cheap drama, one who was calling Picard "JL" which come across as fucking weird as well, one we were unfamiliar with who treated our main character who we love like shit. It was the same with a lot of the other characters, just psychopaths to the left and sociopaths to the right.

Interesting read. Wrong, but interesting.

 

[Lord Garth]

In the '90s, seaQuest DSV was promoted as "Star Trek under water." I remember reading that in TV Guide. Anyone who knows what TV Guide is passes the Age Test.

And that still doesn't explain 12 Monkeys as being "Trek Ajacent. "

As far as The 12 Monkeys, I'd say it's the most Trek-adjacent in regards to Star Trek time-travel episodes, especially "Year of Hell", (cue someone who'll now suddenly say, "I hate time-travel episodes!"), and Dr. Jones reminds me of Captain Janeway; including one episode that I'm dead certain was a response to "Equinox". The cult of the 12 Monkeys reminds me of the Pah'Wraiths from DS9 and the clues about the future and what's to come reminds me of The Prophets.

Out of fairness, I won't count any similarities from PIC S2 and S3, since they didn't exist yet when 12M was made.

 

[fireproof78]

As far as The 12 Monkeys, I'd say it's the most Trek-adjacent in regards to Star Trek time-travel episodes, especially "Year of Hell"

That's a little more clear.

 

[James Cole]

In the '90s, seaQuest DSV was promoted as "Star Trek under water." I remember reading that in TV Guide. Anyone who knows what TV Guide is passes the Age Test.

Who else remembers SEAQUEST and LOIS AND CLARK facing off in the same time slot? Queue up the 90's nostalgia

 

[Lord Garth]

Who else remembers SEAQUEST and LOIS AND CLARK facing off in the same time slot? Queue up the 90's nostalgia

My answer to everything was: Program the VCR on the other TV!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Neither were appointment viewing for me. I watched when I could. Didn't miss them when I didn't.

 

[Ssosmcin]

SeaQuest I stuck with to the bitter end. The second season was pretty dire but I loved seasons 1 and 3. All 3 seasons might as well have been different series.

I really liked Lois and Clark during the first year but I lost interest after that.

I taped em both.

 

[fireproof78]

Seaquest was must see viewing for me. Didn't miss it. Lois and Clark was fine. TNG was generally avoided.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Seaquest was must see viewing for me. Didn't miss it. Lois and Clark was fine. TNG was generally avoided.

I watched season 2 of SeaQuest every week on the hope that it would improve. A recent viewing had me look on those with more forgiving eyes, but it still was truly bizarre. Season 3 - which is really under appreciated - was a refreshing change back to something more adult.

I was glued to TNG for all 7 years, taped every one of them, took out commercials and put them in fancy cases. But in the end, it's the show I go back to the least often even though I love the cast. That's the main reason why I liked Picard season 3 the most: I didn't think the story was anything at all and the fan service was layered over like too much whipped cream on instant pudding, but the cast was fun to see together.

 

[Danja]

They should've assimilated the bulk of the the crew and let Data stay dead.

Sometimes, you have to work with whatever's available. (Seven formed a tactical assault team composed of herself, Raffi, a cook, the ship's doctor, and several medical officers!)

 

[Reanok]

I'm glad Data was alive at the end of season 3 and and I was happy the way the season 3 finale was handled with all the TNG crew survived the Borg and the way they wrapped up the series with the poker game.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's hard for a 12M fan to be introduced to Shaw and not have preconceptions carry over from his prior character. We'd be much more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt than say Admiral Sheer-Fucking-Hubris, and more easily pick up on foreshadowing.

Accusations have been made that people who like Shaw but not, say, Raffi, are racist/sexist/homophobic. Maybe some are, I don't know, nor do I particularly care.

The reason I prefer Shaw to Raffi is simple: Shaw is FUNNY. Raffi rarely was.

I'm not disputing that Shaw is a dick. Of course he is. But even if he is one, he's still funny. That's why most people like him more.