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What specific subject would have wished DS9 fleshed out (more)?

I would like to have seen . . .
1. More background info on the founders. How is their culture organized? Do they have government? Do they have art, music, literature? How do they reproduce? How long do they live? Surely they don't just slosh around against each other as a big orange ocean all the time?
2. A gay romance.
3. More background info on Garak. A Stitch in Time does a good job with that, but finding out more during the show would tie up some loose ends.
4. More cultural background info on Cardassians.
5. Some indication for what Kassidy and Jake will do now that "the Sisko" is with the Prophets.
6. More than one Q episode!!!
7. It would have been nice if some of the "one shot" characters (like Tosk, Rugal) came back for another episode. It would be cool to know what happens to them.
 
I would like to have seen . . .
1. More background info on the founders. How is their culture organized? Do they have government? Do they have art, music, literature? How do they reproduce? How long do they live? Surely they don't just slosh around against each other as a big orange ocean all the time?
2. A gay romance.
3. More background info on Garak. A Stitch in Time does a good job with that, but finding out more during the show would tie up some loose ends.
4. More cultural background info on Cardassians.
5. Some indication for what Kassidy and Jake will do now that "the Sisko" is with the Prophets.
6. More than one Q episode!!!
7. It would have been nice if some of the "one shot" characters (like Tosk, Rugal) came back for another episode. It would be cool to know what happens to them.
I agree with everything except 6. DS9 didn't need Q at all.

So, I think everyone agrees that the Founders needed to be more fleshed out (heh).
 
So, I think everyone agrees that the Founders needed to be more fleshed out (heh).

I don't know that I really do (though it's an interesting topic for reflection). The Founders, a bit like the Prophets, need to have and should have an enigmatic side. They should be extremely alien (and in fact are one of the most successfully "alien" of Trek aliens, which are mostly fragments or caricatures of human society or human personality traits).

In this sense I think the producers made a good change when they went from Founders' world #1 in The Search, which felt like pretty much any other planet where humanoids live, to Founders' world #2 in Broken Link, where all that was left was a single rock outcropping in a changeling sea.

"Fleshed out" doesn't always mean "improved." Sometimes it means that the mystery is lost, or a good, unique idea is rendered stale and familiar. The Link has an aura throughout the later seasons of DS9, a mysterious and magnetic quality, that it might easily have lost.

I'd be interested in hearing ideas about how the Founders might be developed contructively, but I would be wary of turning them into yet another variation on human society (which Trek really doesn't need any more of).

One thing I would change in hindsight where the Founders are concerned: first contact with the Jem'Hadar and/or Vorta should have happened in the season 1 finale or thereabouts, thus giving the Gamma Quadrant an identity from earlier in the show and leaving a full season of mystery regarding the Founders' identity. This reveal, while brilliant in itself, could have been milked for more mystery and suspense.
 
^ I understand you, but "fleshed out" doesn't have to mean "made to be similar to humans". It means that we could have learned more about how the Great Link works, how it arrives at decisions, if there are any disagreements or if they are, as someone said, "liquified Borg" etc.

In fact, wouldn't learning more about the Great Link have made them more non-human? With no little focus on the Link itself and any Founders other than the Female Founder, we were left - most of the time, while she was interacting with 'solids' - with what looked like a female human dressed like a human, talking and walking like a human, whose main non-human characteristic were her had blurry indistinct features.
 
^ I understand you, but "fleshed out" doesn't have to mean "made to be similar to humans". It means that we could have learned more about how the Great Link works, how it arrives at decisions, if there are any disagreements or if they are, as someone said, "liquified Borg" etc.

In fact, wouldn't learning more about the Great Link have made them more non-human? With no little focus on the Link itself and any Founders other than the Female Founder, we were left - most of the time, while she was interacting with 'solids' - with what looked like a female human dressed like a human, talking and walking like a human, whose main non-human characteristic were her had blurry indistinct features.

Maybe there were some missed opportunities here, I certainly can't rule that out, but I remain a bit sceptical. Part of the issue of course is the basic reason why most Trek aliens are humanoid, i.e. that is the main way to have them come to life, given that Trek didn't go the route of using puppets or CGI (for the most part).

In the case of the FC, the premise was that she took on humanoid form principly to interact with Odo, and thus reluctantly, with the main objective of luring him back to the Link to exist "as he was meant to."

The Link is described as otherwordly, difficult to put into words, transcendant, the language is similar to a description of a deep meditative state or the feeling of a loss of boundaries between the self and the universe as experienced in Zen. In that sense, it's definitely not like the Borg, where individual minds are being dominated by a single collective will. It's more like a mystical union.

I'm not convinced that this state of being could be fleshed out any more than the "peace that is beyond all understanding" can be fleshed out: it's not complicated, on the contrary, it is extremely simple and mostly conceived as the opposite of everyday human experience, with all its identity issues, angst, alienation, etc.

It's an interesting idea to consider, but I'm not sure we needed more information about the Founders' more pedestrian activities (such as communicating with the Vorta, or planning strategy for the war). The Link exists really for two reasons. The first is to provide Odo with an existential choice: he can be at peace or he can be a person; he can love and suffer, or he can not love and not suffer. The second is to serve as the enigmatic gods of the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar. I think the great changeling sea does both pretty well, with the FC as a sort of intermediary.

On a slightly tangential note, bringing another "one of the hundred" into the mix was a brilliant choice in Chimera, and possibly something that could have been used as a device earlier, since it makes sense that the outcast changelings would be conflicted like Odo and Laas, and thus each one could be potentially fascinating, without diminishing the enigmatic quality of the Link.

EDIT: While I think that the transcendant union of the Link is clearly distinct from the Borg's mass slavery, it is a useful comparison in that the Borg are an example of a race that really didn't benefit from being fleshed out. It was a great concept in its simplest form, but steadily diminished in awesomeness the more it was examined and revisited. I'm suspicious that the Link would have been similar in this regard.
 
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if there are any disagreements or if they are, as someone said, "liquified Borg" etc.

That was me! Heh. I just thought about when Odo asked the Female Founder her name, she said "What use would I have for a name?" And when Odo said, "To distinguish yourself from the others," she replied "I don't." Then she gave him that whole ocean/drop metaphor ... it just sounded very Borge-esque to me, like when they are all in the Link together they are some sort of collective mind. Odo and Laas are the only two Changelings we met that actually had names, and that was because they had lived among "Solids" and at least partly adapted their ways. So I always wondered if they were Borg-like in that sense...
 
- A reason why the audience is supposed to care about the woes of Bajorans
That has been fleshed out more than enough right from the start of the show in great detail. If you don't get it, it's your damn problem, not the show's.

No, a reason to care hasn't been fleshed-out at all.

I totally get what the show was trying to do. The show was trying to get the audience to care about Bajorans because they whine a lot about being oppressed.

However, having Bajorans whine a lot about being oppressed does not make for a valid reason to care about them. It just makes them obnoxious, and provides a reason to hate them instead of care about them.

I'd say it's very much the show's problem, which is why DS9's ratings plummeted dramatically shortly after Emissary, and also why they abstracted annoying Bajorans in S3-S7 in order to focus on cool things like the Dominion instead, lest the ratings continued to plummet until the show got cancelled by the end of Season 4, as surely would have happened if they didn't abstract Bajorans.

That is also the show's problem because it creates incongruence due to how they never even bothered to have Bajor join the Federation, which was the central purpose of the show in Emissary.
 
- A reason why the audience is supposed to care about the woes of Bajorans
That has been fleshed out more than enough right from the start of the show in great detail. If you don't get it, it's your damn problem, not the show's.

No, a reason to care hasn't been fleshed-out at all.

I totally get what the show was trying to do. The show was trying to get the audience to care about Bajorans because they whine a lot about being oppressed.


I'd say it's very much the show's problem, which is why DS9's ratings plummeted dramatically shortly after Emissary, and also why they abstracted annoying Bajorans in S3-S7 in order to focus on cool things like the Dominion instead, lest the ratings continued to plummet until the show got cancelled by the end of Season 4, as surely would have happened if they didn't abstract Bajorans.

That is also the show's problem because it creates incongruousness due to how they never even bothered to have Bajor join the Federation, which was the central purpose of the show in Emissary.

This IS a good point about the first seasons.
There are some good Barjoran-politik episodes, but not many. It lost me and many more during the original run and had to come back w/the Dominion and the Klingons (+1 for DS9 doing these things). Unlike Nav, slightly, I have some empathy for the Bajorans, but I see his point about the over bitchiness about their said state of affairs.
It would have been nice for Sisko to tell a Bajoran STFU build a bridge and get over it....
 
I was rather disappointed that the Terok Nor trilogy, while providing a lot more insight into Dukat (shudder) didn't really provide additional information regarding the Dukat-Garak enmity.

A Stitch in Time did.
Garak's version of the events. Since the book is written 100% from his POV (the very definition of "unreliable narrator"), the truthfulness of it any events described an open question.

Or maybe it's all true... especially the lies. ;)

This. I already busted Garak in a lie once in that book, and a pretty fundamental one that affects the entire way you read what he has to say, and his motives. Proof available upon request. (It's been a couple years so I would have to reread, but I remember the evidence being pretty ironclad.)
 
In fact, wouldn't learning more about the Great Link have made them more non-human? With no little focus on the Link itself and any Founders other than the Female Founder, we were left - most of the time, while she was interacting with 'solids' - with what looked like a female human dressed like a human, talking and walking like a human, whose main non-human characteristic were her had blurry indistinct features.

I wonder, in all honestly, if the Founders' initial fight was with the Progenitors. Especially after the Progenitors went and created all these other races, which I bet the Founders took as an act of aggression and mimicked in a rather twisted way with the Vorta and Jem'Hadar...
 
I wonder, in all honestly, if the Founders' initial fight was with the Progenitors. Especially after the Progenitors went and created all these other races, which I bet the Founders took as an act of aggression and mimicked in a rather twisted way with the Vorta and Jem'Hadar...
Heh, that's an interesting idea. But are the Founders really that old?
 
I'm not really sure what repercussions we could have expected to see for Damar regarding Ziyal's murder. His guilt is brought up in a later episode, but it's not as though the Dominion or the Cardassians were going to prosecute him for his actions. The only people who might have taken issue with it were Dukat (brought up later) and possibly the folks on DS9, who never really interacted with him after this point. And to throw Ziyal's murder in Damar's face when the Federation needed the Cardassian resistance would have been counter-productive.

Exactly.

The way this issue of Damar/Ziyal was handled really couldn't have been done any other way.

And besides, since when in this universe does everyone get what they deserve?

Although we would like to believe that the universe is 'fair' and that everyone ends up suffering the consequences of their own actions, this is not always the case. And it is ESPECIALLY not the case among political leaders or others who are similarly well connected or 'valuable' for some other purpose.

The only time the Federation folks had any real contact with Damar after he killed Ziyal was when Kira, Odo & Garak went to help the Cardassian Resistance. And while they showed the obvious strain - especially between Damar and Kira - during these episodes, it was also shown that there were much larger issues at stake, and that Ziyal's murder was being set aside for a 'greater good' - that being to save the AQ from the Dominion.

And after that was accomplished, the issue of Damar suffering the consequences of killing Ziyal was moot, since Damar was dead.
 
I would like DS9 to have shown:

- Sisko facing the repercussions for banging Mirror Dax whilst pretending to be her husband

- Sisko facing the repercussions of poisoning the Maquis planets

- Odo facing the repercussions of abandoning everything that he stands for for no reason in order to be complacent in the genocide by withholding the cure (an in-character Odo would always do what is just, no matter what, end of story)

- Odo facing the repercussions of being a traitorous schizo and banging the female Founder

- O'Brien facing the repercussions of Hard Time

I watched the episode where Sisko poisons that planet the other day and the end he was like "meh the cardies and the humans swapped poisoned plantets, no harm no foul." Since the Marquis are kicking up a fuss because they don't want to move from their planets in the DMZ I can't imagine they'd happily swap planets with some cardies, how stupid.

Also Worf really pissed me off in let he who is without sin (I think it was called that) where he helped some terrorists ruin the holidays of thousands of ppl. Shouldn't he have got in trouble for that? I know his plan was only to make it rain but since Risa makes its money off the nice weather the problem he caused would have cost them profits. Also Jadzia quickly forgave him just because he gives her a sad story from his childhood.

A few ppl said they'd have liked to see a gay romance and I agree. As much as I liked rejoined it wasn't really gay it was kind of safe gay. It was clever how they used the alien taboo to mirror the gay taboo while having everyone in the future really cool about it. I'd liked to have seen Dax date a woman she'd not been married to in a past life. Or maybe Major Kira since MU Kira is bisexual maybe the Major is too. Garak would be another obvious choice to give a gay storyline.
 
Garak would be another obvious choice to give a gay storyline.

This has probably been said before, but Garak was supposed to originally be a one-shot character, and the actor Andrew Robinson said that in his first episode, he played the character as an omnisexual attracted to Bashir (which you can really see in his first scenes with the good doctor). However, when they decided to make him recurring, he was told to drop that aspect of the character. I do think some subtext remained between him and Bashir but there was never anything so overt or open to a 'gay' interpretation as their first scenes. They seemed to really try to shake off the 'gay' vibe by having the doctor interested in various women and later pairing Garak off with Ziyal. But Bashir/Garak was still a fascinating relationship.
 
Heh, good for Robinson. There is like, so much Bashir/Garak slash fiction out there, it's not even funny. I think they slashiest couple in Trek, if that's even a thing.
 
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