What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?

[Arpy]

The difference is that they already had three poorly rendered FC ships. They didn't need to make one from scratch.

Not if they didn’t care about reusing century old ships, no.

Frankly, a lot more of ships or entirely new designs, variants, kitbashes and configurations should have been poorly rendered background ships. The fleet should have been a lot more diverse than just the models we just so happened to previously see (and not even all of those), and nowhere near as close together as we saw them in the series. For me these battle fleets were when the series jumped a shark, though not the shark.

I'm a big fan of David Stipes, the visual effects coordinator for DS9's later seasons… Contrary to what one might think, he and his crew were not concerned about which type of ship class they used;

Shocking.

that's just something that fans like us whine about after the fact.

Yeah, like fans or something.

For example, if they had had a physical model or CGI model of the TOS Enterprise available, they would have used it despite it looking completely out of place, because they only used what they had available and did not have the time/feel the need to create something new. To them, a ship was a ship, and if they had enough Mirandas and Excelsiors to fill the scene with, that was fine with them.

Did he say this or are you illustrating your point? If the former, well, exhibit E, your honor.

You need to get out of the headspace that they didn't 'push' for new ships just because you have a bias about what they used, because it had nothing to do with them wanting new ships.

I have to do no such thing. This is a bizarre statement for someone participating in this thread, especially at this point in it. What gives?

 

[Dukhat]

Not if they didn’t care about reusing century old ships, no.

They didn't. As I mentioned previously, their concern was more that they wanted to show a large fleet. The particular type of ship in that fleet was irrelevant. That's why the Klingons only had the BoPs, Ktingas and Vorchas, because in their minds there was no need to show anything else, and no concern that 2/3 of those ships were ridiculously outdated.

Frankly, a lot more of ships or entirely new designs, variants, kitbashes and configurations should have been poorly rendered background ships. The fleet should have been a lot more diverse than just the models we just so happened to previously see (and not even all of those), and nowhere near as close together as we saw them in the series. For me these battle fleets were when the series jumped a shark, though not the shark.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm pointing out the reality of the situation. And to be honest, I wouldn't want poorly rendered background ships. I would have wanted entirely new CGI class designs that were ridiculously detailed and seen up close. But that would have been an even more unrealistic want than what you are describing.

Did he say this or are you illustrating your point? If the former, well, exhibit E, your honor.

His direct quote was "I'm sorry to say that there was no TOS Enterprise or Enterprise-E. We just didn't think of them."

I have to do no such thing. This is a bizarre statement for someone participating in this thread, especially at this point in it. What gives?

Let me rephrase. You are quite welcome to think whatever you like about what they used for the fleet and what they didn't, or what you wish they would have used. As I mentioned above, I'm simply pointing out the reality of the situation which you don't seem to want to accept. I would have also liked more diversity in the fleets, but I understand why that didn't happen. You keep saying 'they should have done this or that,' or 'they had time to make all this stuff,' when the truth was that the rigors of production in those days was counterintuitive to what you think they should have done.

 

[Arpy]

They didn't. As I mentioned previously, their concern was more that they wanted to show a large fleet. The particular type of ship in that fleet was irrelevant. That's why the Klingons only had the BoPs, Ktingas and Vorchas, because in their minds there was no need to show anything else, and no concern that 2/3 of those ships were ridiculously outdated.

Yeah, it's just unfortunate that they felt that way. I mean, TNG did its best to give a shit about stuff like that, having older ships in less front-line roles, with smaller crews, etc. And it did its overall best not to show massive fleets together not because it didn't want to but because it knew it couldn't do it adequately. I think by the time of Way of the Warrior at least the franchise was just so giddy to be able to do huge fleet battles it tossed some of the internal realism out the airlock. I think they could have done with maybe a third fewer ships or external shots in the episode and come up with at least one or two new Klingon ships for the fleet if only for the background. Okuda did come up with one lackluster one on the cheap.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm pointing out the reality of the situation. And to be honest, I wouldn't want poorly rendered background ships. I would have wanted entirely new CGI class designs that were ridiculously detailed and seen up close. But that would have been an even more unrealistic want than what you are describing.

I think we all would prefer ridiculously detailed ships seen up close, but because that was unrealistic, I think poorly rendered background ships would have satisfied in-universe realism in a cost effective way and left us wanting more. Could you imagine the countless fan art trying to flesh out what some those little more than silhouettes might have looked like? Like FC, I think some ships could have been more fleshed out (Akira) than others (Norway).

His direct quote was "I'm sorry to say that there was no TOS Enterprise or Enterprise-E. We just didn't think of them."

Well, they weren't permitted to us the E-E or the TOS movie E so I'm not sure if he's misremembering or talking about when they were first spitballing ideas. A TOS series E is just batshit IMHO. Throw a couple of nacelles on the aircraft carrier E while you're at it––who gives a shit, right?

Let me rephrase. You are quite welcome to think whatever you like about what they used for the fleet and what they didn't. As I mentioned above, I'm simply pointing out the reality of the situation which you seem to want to refuse to accept. I would have also liked more diversity in the fleets, but I understand why that didn't happen.

I understand why it didn't happen but I'm dissatisfied with it (it's a TV show not a platonic ideal) and engaging in a bit of fun imaging what if.

I wonder if they that the money to show a flashback to Wolf 359 during Shaw's monologue in PIC s3 what ships they would have used. Would it have been the ones from BoBW, ones from "Emissary," ones from both, or entirely new ones? What they might show in a holographic recreation of the battle at the Academy in the upcoming Academy series....ideally it would be a mixture of all three. Same with the Dominion War battles, it would be a mixture of what we saw and more.

 

[Dukhat]

I think we all would prefer ridiculously detailed ships seen up close, but because that was unrealistic, I think poorly rendered background ships would have satisfied in-universe realism in a cost effective way and left us wanting more. Could you imagine the countless fan art trying to flesh out what some those little more than silhouettes might have looked like? Like FC, I think some ships could have been more fleshed out (Akira) than others (Norway).

Well, if they couldn't even fix the Norway mesh, I doubt making new low-poly background ships was high on their list of priorities.

Well, they weren't permitted to us the E-E or the TOS movie E so I'm not sure if he's misremembering or talking about when they were first spitballing ideas. A TOS series E is just batshit IMHO. Throw a couple of nacelles on the aircraft carrier E while you're at it––who gives a shit, right?

He was just responding to the interviewer who was asking why they didn't use certain ships. Keep in mind that this interview was about the fleet in "Call to Arms" which contained both physical models and CGI, so he was under twice the constraint to insert CG ships and ships that they had to physically mount and shoot with a camera, many of which were just AMT model kits and Playmates toys that they had to make sure didn't look too unrealistic as filming models.

I wonder if they that the money to show a flashback to Wolf 359 during Shaw's monologue in PIC s3 what ships they would have used. Would it have been the ones from BoBW, ones from "Emissary," ones from both, or entirely new ones? What they might show in a holographic recreation of the battle at the Academy in the upcoming Academy series....ideally it would be a mixture of all three. Same with the Dominion War battles, it would be a mixture of what we saw and more.

First of all, I think it was a mistake to make Shaw's previous posting a Constellation class. It was just a display in the closing credits. They could have made any design they wanted for that display, but they chose an already existing ship (probably, again, for reasons of time) which was just meant to harken back to Picard's old ship.

But yeah, I think it would have been cool to see a Wolf 359 flashback, but I wouldn't have had much faith that they would have realistically depicted what ships should have been there. They couldn't even make the Chin'toka graveyard anything more than random bits of nondescript floating wreckage and a Vulcan ship from DSC that had no business being there.

 

[Tomalak]

No, to my knowledge there was never any intention to use the Prometheus. My point, rather, was that it would have been easier to use a CGI model for it rather than having to take the time to relabel and reregister the physical Voyager model and then having to film it for the opening scene in orbit of Romulus (although at least they could then use stock footage of Voyager in flight, which they did.)

But they didn't use the physical Voyager model, it was CGI for the couple of new shots.

Sorry, perhaps I'm misunderstanding!

 

[Dukhat]

But they didn't use the physical Voyager model, it was CGI for the couple of new shots.

Sorry, perhaps I'm misunderstanding!

There were two new shots of the ship while it was in orbit of Romulus, and close-up so you could see the name and registry. I was under the impression that those shots were made with the physical model, while the other shots of the ship in flight were just stock footage from VOY. If you have evidence to the contrary, I’m fine being proven wrong.

 

[Tomalak]

There were two new shots of the ship while it was in orbit of Romulus, and close-up so you could see the name and registry. I was under the impression that those shots were made with the physical model, while the other shots of the ship in flight were just stock footage from VOY. If you have evidence to the contrary, I’m fine being proven wrong.

Yeah there are stock shots of Voyager in flight, but the new shots of the ship orbiting Romulus are definitely the CGI model.

DS9 had switched entirely to CGI by that point in Season 7, and Foundation Imaging are credited with that episode. The Voyager physical model was never relabelled.

It was Foundation's CGI model, turned over to Digital Muse for otherwise unaltered use – save for its registry number – , that made the sole class sister appearance as the aforementioned USS Bellerophon in Deep Space Nine's season seven episode "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges". (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion, pp. 661-662)

Intrepid class model

Several studio models of the Intrepid-class, specifically for the USS Voyager, were designed and used on Star Trek: Voyager, having also appeared as another class vessel, the USS Bellerophon, in one episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Starting out as a traditional physical studio model...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

 

[Dukhat]

Yeah there are stock shots of Voyager in flight, but the new shots of the ship orbiting Romulus are definitely the CGI model.

DS9 had switched entirely to CGI by that point in Season 7, and Foundation Imaging are credited with that episode. The Voyager physical model was never relabelled.

It was Foundation's CGI model, turned over to Digital Muse for otherwise unaltered use – save for its registry number – , that made the sole class sister appearance as the aforementioned USS Bellerophon in Deep Space Nine's season seven episode "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges". (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion, pp. 661-662)

Intrepid class model

Several studio models of the Intrepid-class, specifically for the USS Voyager, were designed and used on Star Trek: Voyager, having also appeared as another class vessel, the USS Bellerophon, in one episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Starting out as a traditional physical studio model...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

Cool, I stand corrected. In that case, it was a better choice to use the Voyager CGI model rather than the Prometheus, based on using VOY's interior sets.

 

[Arpy]

I wonder, if they had a really good idea for an episode on Admiral Ross’s flagship they could have either gotten special permission to use the USS Sovereign….or maybe used this opportunity to introduce the first three-nacelled Galaxy Class ship that we saw in “All Good Things...” After all, the Negh’Var model was also introduced in that episode.

The over-the-top phaser canon under the saucer and the silly little pointy phasers near the bridge I could do without. But the third nacelle and pylon fins could have worked. Maybe other changes for the flagship too—again like the Negh’Var between the finale and its reintroduction on DS9.

Going back to the idea of more variants, I think fleet shots with the Galaxy Class as we saw on TNG, the Venture variant with the additional phaser trips, a three-nacelle dreadnaught, and a bunch of separated stardrives could have been interesting to see.

Worf says in “Heart of Glory” that, “When relieved of its bulk, the Enterprise becomes an exceptional weapon.” Well, this would be the time to really let them loose.

I imagine part of the reason in-universe so many of the Galaxy Class starships we saw did include the saucer is because they were doing double duty as troop transports. After all, we didn’t see any of those in the fleet shots, and they’ve got to occupy the territory they take somehow. The Galaxy Class saucers could transport a whole lot of both personnel and matériel.

 

[Dukhat]

The extra parts from the AGT future Enterprise-D were removed after filming was complete. So using the physical model in that configuration in the Dominion war would not have happened, nor would they have made those modifications to the CGI Galaxy class model they had.

And they did not want to use a Sovereign because they thought the audience would think it was the Enterprise-E.

 

[Tomalak]

It would have been nice to see the Negh’var too, but again that didn’t receive a CGI model until Voyager’s finale.

 

[Arpy]

The extra parts from the AGT future Enterprise-D were removed after filming was complete. So using the physical model in that configuration in the Dominion war would not have happened, nor would they have made those modifications to the CGI Galaxy class model they had.

You’re really not being any fun with this. The Enterprise model and the extra parts were still around. If they wanted to, they could have used it. CG models are very alterable with time and yes money. Money that they spent in every single episode on makeup, effects, locations, etc. It’s a matter of the choices they made with the money they had. The three-nacelle Galaxy is far closer to the realm of possibility than say a few dozen entirely new classes of ships to round out the fleets as they more realistically might have been. Which we should talk about.

And they did not want to use a Sovereign because they thought the audience would think it was the Enterprise-E.

We have established this. The point is if they got special permission for a very cool episode idea. Like they did with the Intrepid and VOY sets.

It would have been nice to see the Negh’var too, but again that didn’t receive a CGI model until Voyager’s finale.

Definitely. If only as reused footage from “Way of the Warrior.”

 

[Dukhat]

You’re really not being any fun with this. The Enterprise model and the extra parts were still around. If they wanted to, they could have used it. CG models are very alterable with time and yes money. Money that they spent in every single episode on makeup, effects, locations, etc. It’s a matter of the choices they made with the money they had. The three-nacelle Galaxy is far closer to the realm of possibility than say a few dozen entirely new classes of ships to round out the fleets as they more realistically might have been. Which we should talk about.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that pointing out the reality of production during that time constituted 'not being any fun.' Again, you keep saying 'they could have used it if they wanted to,' or 'they could have spent more money on this or that,' but the reality is that, no they couldn't. The time and budget constraints for episode production back then were insane, and they simply would not have done the things you are describing even if they wanted to.

Now to be fair, I can have as much 'fun' with this as you can. Sure, I can absolutely wish that they had the time and budget to create better and more realistic visual effects, such as:

-Designing at least 10 new high-resolution CGI starship classes contemporary to the Sovereign and Intrepid classes and not using outdated designs such as the Excelsior and Miranda, or low-poly background ships like the FC vessels;

-Designing new Klingon and Romulan ships besides the Warbird, Vorchas, and outdated BoPs and Ktingas;

-Designing a new class of ship for the Defiant-A, and perhaps a new class of Klingon ship for Martok's Rotarran, rather than just reusing stock footage of the old Defiant;

-Creating all new CGI battle footage, especially for the series finale, and not continually reusing stock footage;

-Creating a new space station model for Starbase 375 instead of reusing an old model from 1979's TMP, and scaling it up to ridiculous proportions.


Yes, I would have liked to have had all these things. But none of that happened, and it wasn't because they didn't try hard enough or misused the miniscule amount of budget money they had.

We have established this. The point is if they got special permission for a very cool episode idea. Like they did with the Intrepid and VOY sets.

It would have been far easier to use the Voyager CGI model and sets, as the DS9 production facilities were right next door. I think the TNG movies were being filmed somewhere else.

 

[Arpy]

Sorry, I wasn't aware that pointing out the reality of production during that time constituted 'not being any fun.'

It’s not. We’re all aware of the realities of television production if we’re nerds in this thread.

Again, you keep saying 'they could have used it if they wanted to,' or 'they could have spent more money on this or that,' but the reality is that, no they couldn't. The time and budget constraints for episode production back then were insane, and they simply would not have done the things you are describing even if they wanted to.

If the idea was to do everything they did and then also more, yes, but that’s not what’s being said here. It’s a tradeoff. I’ve noted some tradeoffs they could have made, like using fewer overall effects shots, fewer ships in the shots they did (as would realistically be the case with ships further apart), and low res new designs only in the background.

Additionally, in lieu of new aliens like the Breen and their ships, they could have saved money by using Cardassian and Jem’Hadar ships. Or Karemma, Hunter, or others we’d already seen. Obviously not as new Dominion allies from the Alpha Quadrant—that storyline might have been traded off.

Come to think of it, they might have also traded it with other allies that wouldn’t need new ships like the Ferengi, Talarians, or others.

-Designing a new class of ship for the Defiant-A, and perhaps a new class of Klingon ship for Martok's Rotarran;

Yeah, the destruction of the Defiant was puzzling to me. Why blow one up to bring in an exact copy of it? Especially as the first one was a testbed and no others were ever used in the war. Either there were more that we didn't see or the tech, once proven, was installed in the rest of the fleet—Lakota. I’m thinking it’s a little of both, as I’m remembering a couple of Defiant Class ships in VOY’s “Message in a Bottle.” More evidence to suggest they weren’t total hard asses in using restricted ships.

The Rotarran was another funny one. A tiny little scout for a general? But, okay—tv.

-Creating a new space station model for Starbase 375 instead of reusing an old model from 1979's TMP, and scaling it up to ridiculous proportions.

Yeah, I never liked that either.

It would have been far easier to use the Voyager CGI model and sets, as the DS9 production facilities were right next door. I think the TNG movies were being filmed somewhere else.

It would have also been easier to use the Sovereign model and/or sets, but that wasn’t permitted. Neither was using the Voyager model and sets for any of the battle scenes. This is what I’m saying, they figured it out.


—


Fan edit of the Battle of Wolf 359, including a saucer-separated Galaxy Class starship as Admiral Hanson’s flagship, as well as a number of both old designs from BoBW and entirely new ones.

 

[Tomalak]

It’s about choices. They could have commissioned new starships if they thought there was a valid story reason to do so. ‘Valiant’ is an example of this, the story demanded a new Jem’Hadar mega warship, so one was created. Similarly the introduction of the Breen required a new ship for them.

Over on Voyager, they were designing new ships of the week on a regular basis, because the nature of the series required it.

DS9 tended to spend the money elsewhere - particularly the cast. They had a vast array of recurring characters, particularly in later seasons, and they cost money. Voyager tended to have perhaps a couple of guest stars per episode.

So they could have allocated more money to VFX and designed more new ships to fill the background of fleet scenes, but would that have made the episodes better? Would it have been better to chop a few characters out of WYLB to avoid reusing stock battle footage? I would say no, but YMMV. That’s the call the producers had to make.

 

[Dukhat]

Yeah, the destruction of the Defiant was puzzling to me. Why blow one up to bring in an exact copy of it?

The Rotarran was another funny one. A tiny little scout for a general? But, okay—tv.

They blew up the Defiant for dramatic effect. And it was good dramatic effect...except for the fact that they knowingly were planning on bringing it right back so they could reuse stock footage of it for the finale. Neither the DS9 producers nor the VOY producers seemed to understand how the concept of 'dramatic effect' is supposed to work (remember the Delta Flyer being blown to bits only to have an identical one appear out of nowhere?)

As for the Rotarran, I agree that Martok should have deserved a new battlecruiser of his own on par with the Defiant. I mean, we saw the ship 13 times during the course of the series. I would even have wanted the Rotarran to take over from the destroyed Defiant as the new command ship, but obviously that wasn't even a blip on their radar.

It would have also been easier to use the Sovereign model and/or sets, but that wasn’t permitted. Neither was using the Voyager model and sets for any of the battle scenes. This is what I’m saying, they figured it out.

I'm saying that it was probably easier for them to use the VOY sets rather than the Ent-E film sets because the VOY sets were right next door.

It’s about choices. They could have commissioned new starships if they thought there was a valid story reason to do so. ‘Valiant’ is an example of this, the story demanded a new Jem’Hadar mega warship, so one was created. Similarly the introduction of the Breen required a new ship for them.

Over on Voyager, they were designing new ships of the week on a regular basis, because the nature of the series required it.

DS9 tended to spend the money elsewhere - particularly the cast. They had a vast array of recurring characters, particularly in later seasons, and they cost money. Voyager tended to have perhaps a couple of guest stars per episode.

So they could have allocated more money to VFX and designed more new ships to fill the background of fleet scenes, but would that have made the episodes better? Would it have been better to chop a few characters out of WYLB to avoid reusing stock battle footage? I would say no, but YMMV. That’s the call the producers had to make.

Agreed. DS9 was far more about the characters than the technology. Sacrificing characters just to make a new CGI ship model when they already had enough ships would have been counterintuitive. The ships were simply not that important (although I still think that bringing a replacement Defiant right back just to use stock footage for the series finale was a cheap move on their part. The final episode deserved better than that.)

 

[at Quark's]

Obviously, they should have used the USS Wet Dream from the Fanwank class:

• a crew complement of 28.500;
• 7 kilometers in length, 371 decks;
• 2nd generation Quantum Slipstream Drive, capable of reaching the GQ in 5 minutes even after the wormhole was closed;
• Transphasic torpedoes;
• hyperquantumphasers (no idea, but it sounds advanced) ;
• advanced ablative armor (the type they use in Endgame);
• Transphasic beaming; beams through any enemy shielding or forcefield known;
• Capable of projecting unlimited numbers of holographic Federation; soldiers simultaneously in a radius of 50 lightyears, for example on sabotage missions on enemy vessels (impossible to block for the enemy because of the aforementioned Transphasic Beaming)
• A vast supply of Programmable Matter Pods for any eventuality that might pop up;
• The best of basically every feature you could imagine on board (including in terms of crew comfort, relaxation, etc.)

Unfortunately, this ship seems to have been unavailable at the time.

 

[Arpy]

^ interesting that you went for the smaller model…

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Obviously, they should have used the USS Wet Dream from the Fanwank class:

• a crew complement of 28.500;
• 7 kilometers in length, 371 decks;
• 2nd generation Quantum Slipstream Drive, capable of reaching the GQ in 5 minutes even after the wormhole was closed;
• Transphasic torpedoes;
• hyperquantumphasers (no idea, but it sounds advanced) ;
• advanced ablative armor (the type they use in Endgame);
• Transphasic beaming; beams through any enemy shielding or forcefield known;
• Capable of projecting unlimited numbers of holographic Federation; soldiers simultaneously in a radius of 50 lightyears, for example on sabotage missions on enemy vessels (impossible to block for the enemy because of the aforementioned Transphasic Beaming)
• A vast supply of Programmable Matter Pods for any eventuality that might pop up;
• The best of basically every feature you could imagine on board (including in terms of crew comfort, relaxation, etc.)

Unfortunately, this ship seems to have been unavailable at the time.

Sounds like you want a "Super Star Destroyer" in the shape of a StarFleet vessel.
7 km is well within the "Super Star Destroyer" range.

 

[Tomalak]

Voth City Ship would eat the Executor for lunch.