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What punishment do they deserve?

Brodie Panlock's parents are now calling for the law to be changed so that bullies like these men can be sent to prison.

Which makes no sense. Otherwise literally about half the people I knew at school and in my community outside should go to prison. It's not about individuals; if you want to blame something blame the way the social structure works.

Some of what was done to her - having fish oil thrown over her and being spat at - should qualify for assault.

And why should emotional abuse be treated any differently to physical abuse. It is time that society started to take a stand on emotional abuse and make it a crime. Minor offenses would result in fines, and the very serious cases, including those cases when the aggressor tries to incite a person to suicide could result in prison time.
 
And why should emotional abuse be treated any differently to physical abuse.

Because emotional abuse is much more vague. Look, bullying is horribly wrong, but should all immoral behavior be criminalized? I fear that any attempt to legislate this kind of thing would result in the net being cast far wider than intended.
 
Brodie Panlock's parents are now calling for the law to be changed so that bullies like these men can be sent to prison.

Which makes no sense. Otherwise literally about half the people I knew at school and in my community outside should go to prison. It's not about individuals; if you want to blame something blame the way the social structure works.

Oh, how many people do you know who seem to think its ok to wage a campaign of intimidation and bully on people to such a degree they felt they had no other escape than to kill themselves.

Did I not answer that question before you asked it?

Brodie Panlock's parents are now calling for the law to be changed so that bullies like these men can be sent to prison.

Which makes no sense. Otherwise literally about half the people I knew at school and in my community outside should go to prison. It's not about individuals; if you want to blame something blame the way the social structure works.

Some of what was done to her - having fish oil thrown over her and being spat at - should qualify for assault.

And why should emotional abuse be treated any differently to physical abuse. It is time that society started to take a stand on emotional abuse and make it a crime. Minor offenses would result in fines, and the very serious cases, including those cases when the aggressor tries to incite a person to suicide could result in prison time.

Again, in that case literally half the people I know need to be put on trial. You simply can't criminalize that number of people.
 
I am not talking about someone being bullied once in a while. I am talking about serious harrassment like what happened to this girl.

I remember a time when stalking was not illegal. I could take no action against my ex-husband when he used to park outside my house after our marriage broke up. I was told by police he had to do something to me physically before they could take action. Nowadays I could get something done because the law was changed.

And I will again state - this woman was phyically assaulted when she had fish oil thrown over her and when she was spat on. That was not emotional abuse but physical abuse that should be prosecuted.

If I walked down into the city centre and threw oil over a random stranger and spat at them the police would probably charge me with assault. Why should the victim or abuser knowing each other make any difference to that crime?

EDITED TO ADD - under Australia law

An assault is when a person strikes, touches, moves, or applies force to you (directly or indirectly) without your consent. This includes hitting and spitting.
 
Harassment and physical assault are against the law, and this could have been dealt with long before somebody died. The people in charge of this establishment just didn't do their job.
 
This was not some school yard messing about or the knocking of books out of somebody's hands, this was a sustained and prolonged vicious attack mentally and physically on one woman by three grown responsible male adults and another responsible grown adult who was her employer and who failed in every aspect of his job in protecting his employee, who stood on the side lines and allowed it to happen......grown adults in full control of their actions and fully aware of what going on around them, there is nobody else to blame, in my view as i said they got away with murder and the law has told them they will be punished monetarily.

I'm sure the victims family must be ecstatic with that outcome, they lost their daughter, no doubt had their own lives turned upside down at the hands of this animals and now these same animals will carry on with their lives as if they are simply paying off a debt.

Now that's justice.
 
What a sad, and sick, story. The relationship aspect really makes it foul. I think the man who inflicted that abuse on her might easily be a sociopath.

I wonder if anyone close to her knew what was going on. It's so tragic when something like this happens and there were so many avenues to avoid it.
 
I am not talking about someone being bullied once in a while. I am talking about serious harrassment like what happened to this girl.

And I will again state - this woman was phyically assaulted when she had fish oil thrown over her and when she was spat on. That was not emotional abuse but physical abuse that should be prosecuted.

If I walked down into the city centre and threw oil over a random stranger and spat at them the police would probably charge me with assault. Why should the victim or abuser knowing each other make any difference to that crime?

.

Harassment and physical assault are against the law, and this could have been dealt with long before somebody died. The people in charge of this establishment just didn't do their job.

This was not some school yard messing about or the knocking of books out of somebody's hands, this was a sustained and prolonged vicious attack mentally and physically on one woman by three grown responsible male adults and another responsible grown adult who was her employer and who failed in every aspect of his job in protecting his employee, who stood on the side lines and allowed it to happen......grown adults in full control of their actions and fully aware of what going on around them, there is nobody else to blame.



And I will state again, are you prepared to arrest essentially a full half of the people in a community? Because that's about the number of people who either participated in prolonged psychological and physical abuse of me, or else turned a blind eye and "stood on the side lines allowing it to happen". So yes, sure, spit and hiss and throw rocks at these particular people all you will, but its a great mass of society that behaves in this way and unless you're prepared to charge all of them, you're being hypocritical. The problem does not lie in any one particular individual to be pulled out and pointed at and distanced from the group. The ideologies and behaviours and attitudes that were responsible for this person's suicide are strung throughout society, enforced and supported by a great number of people. Society needs to police itself and examine itself, not do the usual trick of pulling out a few people to condemn as "excuses for a human being" or whatever other phrases of this sort you have stored away. Again, it's the usual trick of "close ranks, find the outsider, attack them, condemn them, then everything's better". You're not dealing with the problem, just magicking it away by dumping the full weight of collective responsibility on a few individuals who embodied the attitudes in this individual case. Brushing your hands of them after this grand scapegoating won't help anyone else, will it? It'll in fact make it worse, because as far as most people are concerned "case closed, justice done. Problem identified: these three people. Problem neutralized. Happy ending". And nothing will change. Indeed, it will only become an issue again the next time some worthy victim kills themselves and society experiences the loss of esteem that motivates the instinct to scapegoat and attack. Abuse will be allowed to continue daily, as it did for me, and only become an issue when something snaps (ie, young female kills herself- we don't like that) and society hastily needs it fixed back on; in which case they quickly suddenly make an issue of it to support their sudden discomfort, before pointing the finger, excersing their "justice" (the attack on the designated individual outsiders) and then settling back down into the routine.

Oh, but I guess my experiences are just "school-yard messing about", "being bullied once in a while" or whatever you want to call it to try and justify some idea of how it's different...
 
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I can assure you that not a full-half of my community indulge in behaviours like these. Very few of my community would. In fact I don't think I have ever witnessed anyone being spat at or having rocks thrown at. When my son was mugged late last year in our suburb total strangers came to his defense.

If authorities started to prosecute crimes such as those committed by these people would think twice before they bullied and that includes the people who bully you.

I believe that this case is a watershed case for Australia. I think that now more employers will stop looking the other way when one of their employees is being bullied. They now now that the Worksafe could very well take action against them.

In a poll conducted today 94% of Australians have said they would like the laws change so that people like these men can be jailed for bullying.

I think it is high-time that we start prosecuting principals and teachers for failing to provide a safe environment for the children that are entrusted into their care.
 
I can assure you that not a full-half of my community indulge in behaviours like these. Very few of my community would. In fact I don't think I have ever witnessed anyone being spat at or having rocks thrown at. When my son was mugged late last year in our suburb total strangers came to his defense.

If authorities started to prosecute crimes such as those committed by these people would think twice before they bullied and that includes the people who bully you.

I believe that this case is a watershed case for Australia. I think that now more employers will stop looking the other way when one of their employees is being bullied. They now now that the Worksafe could very well take action against them.

In a poll conducted today 94% of Australians have said they would like the laws change so that people like these men can be jailed for bullying.

I think it is high-time that we start prosecuting principals and teachers for failing to provide a safe environment for the children that are entrusted into their care.

Okay, then, I've got a long list of names of people who should be jailed, and it would indeed add up to about half the people I ever knew. Yes, I'm sure people do want "people like those men" jailed, but are they prepared to be on the receiving end of such laws?
 
I did not say that everyone has to be prosecuted for this crime only that if more people were prosecuted than the incidents of such behaviour would drop especially if employers and principals and others in authority know that they will be held responsible if they allow such things to happen.

If such laws were bought in it would not be possible to go back and prosecute people who committed such crimes before they were against the law. However if new anti-bullying laws are bought in and well publicised and some prosecutions made than the majority of people would be less likely to indulge in such bullying.
 
I did not say that everyone has to be prosecuted for this crime only that if more people were prosecuted than the incidents of such behaviour would drop especially if employers and principals and others in authority know that they will be held responsible if they allow such things to happen.

If such laws were bought in it would not be possible to go back and prosecute people who committed such crimes before they were against the law. However if new anti-bullying laws are bought in and well publicised and some prosecutions made than the majority of people would be less likely to indulge in such bullying.

Yes, yes, you're right. I'm sorry, Miss Chicken, I'm just being bitter again. It's difficult for me to get past my own experiences and I tend to get blinded when topics of this type come up. Sorry to have dragged this out. I'm afraid I can be a bit of a chore at times like this.
 
And I will state again, are you prepared to arrest essentially a full half of the people in a community? Because that's about the number of people who either participated in prolonged psychological and physical abuse of me, or else turned a blind eye and "stood on the side lines allowing it to happen". So yes, sure, spit and hiss and throw rocks at these particular people all you will, but its a great mass of society that behaves in this way and unless you're prepared to charge all of them, you're being hypocritical. The problem does not lie in any one particular individual to be pulled out and pointed at and distanced from the group. The ideologies and behaviours and attitudes that were responsible for this person's suicide are strung throughout society, enforced and supported by a great number of people. Society needs to police itself and examine itself, not do the usual trick of pulling out a few people to condemn as "excuses for a human being" or whatever other phrases of this sort you have stored away. Again, it's the usual trick of "close ranks, find the outsider, attack them, condemn them, then everything's better". You're not dealing with the problem, just magicking it away by dumping the full weight of collective responsibility on a few individuals who embodied the attitudes in this individual case. Brushing your hands of them after this grand scapegoating won't help anyone else, will it? It'll in fact make it worse, because as far as most people are concerned "case closed, justice done. Problem identified: these three people. Problem neutralized. Happy ending". And nothing will change. Indeed, it will only become an issue again the next time some worthy victim kills themselves and society experiences the loss of esteem that motivates the instinct to scapegoat and attack. Abuse will be allowed to continue daily, as it did for me, and only become an issue when something snaps (ie, young female kills herself- we don't like that) and society hastily needs it fixed back on; in which case they quickly suddenly make an issue of it to support their sudden discomfort, before pointing the finger, excersing their "justice" (the attack on the designated individual outsiders) and then settling back down into the routine.

Oh, but I guess my experiences are just "school-yard messing about", "being bullied once in a while" or whatever you want to call it to try and justify some idea of how it's different...

Its not a perfect world but neither should it be a world were we just accept that nothing can be done, blame it on society as a whole, and just sit and accept it, one thing we can do is learn from what went wrong this time and put in place laws to punish those who proceed to continue on in this manner for the future and hopefully stop it happening to others.
 
And I will state again, are you prepared to arrest essentially a full half of the people in a community? Because that's about the number of people who either participated in prolonged psychological and physical abuse of me, or else turned a blind eye and "stood on the side lines allowing it to happen". So yes, sure, spit and hiss and throw rocks at these particular people all you will, but its a great mass of society that behaves in this way and unless you're prepared to charge all of them, you're being hypocritical. The problem does not lie in any one particular individual to be pulled out and pointed at and distanced from the group. The ideologies and behaviours and attitudes that were responsible for this person's suicide are strung throughout society, enforced and supported by a great number of people. Society needs to police itself and examine itself, not do the usual trick of pulling out a few people to condemn as "excuses for a human being" or whatever other phrases of this sort you have stored away. Again, it's the usual trick of "close ranks, find the outsider, attack them, condemn them, then everything's better". You're not dealing with the problem, just magicking it away by dumping the full weight of collective responsibility on a few individuals who embodied the attitudes in this individual case. Brushing your hands of them after this grand scapegoating won't help anyone else, will it? It'll in fact make it worse, because as far as most people are concerned "case closed, justice done. Problem identified: these three people. Problem neutralized. Happy ending". And nothing will change. Indeed, it will only become an issue again the next time some worthy victim kills themselves and society experiences the loss of esteem that motivates the instinct to scapegoat and attack. Abuse will be allowed to continue daily, as it did for me, and only become an issue when something snaps (ie, young female kills herself- we don't like that) and society hastily needs it fixed back on; in which case they quickly suddenly make an issue of it to support their sudden discomfort, before pointing the finger, excersing their "justice" (the attack on the designated individual outsiders) and then settling back down into the routine.

Oh, but I guess my experiences are just "school-yard messing about", "being bullied once in a while" or whatever you want to call it to try and justify some idea of how it's different...

Its not a perfect world but neither should it be a world were we just accept that nothing can be done, blame it on society as a whole, and just sit and accept it, one thing we can do is learn from what went wrong this time and put in place laws to punish those who proceed to continue on in this manner for the future and hopefully stop it happening to others.

Well, "blaming it on society as a whole" does not equal "nothing can be done". I actually have no problem with the idea of penalties for these people, because everyone must accept personal responsibility. BUT it is hypocritical, frustratingly so, when society in general demands that responsibility without acknowledging its own shared responsibility. That's what angers me. People insist on "taking responsibility" but really what they mean is "someone else take responsibility as the rest of us wipe our hands of it".


I'm very sorry if I've annoyed anyone in this thread. I know I can be difficult at times like this, and I do apologise.
 
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....there are going to be moments of violent retribution for a violent crime.

Heat-of-the-moment confrontations where the victim or loved ones are overwhelmed by instinct and emotion and attack, yes (and where other people are unsuccessful in holding them back). That's quite different from sitting and premeditating it, or sitting at your computer calmly stating "these people should be beaten".

I wasn't speaking of heat-of-the-moment confrontations; nor did I imply any emotional lash back. I am referring to retribution.


What a sad, and sick, story. The relationship aspect really makes it foul. I think the man who inflicted that abuse on her might easily be a sociopath.

I wonder if anyone close to her knew what was going on. It's so tragic when something like this happens and there were so many avenues to avoid it.


I agree. The lack of empathy and concern he showed while having a relationship with her reveals a very frightening side to him.

Silent suffering...some people are extremely expert at hiding their pain, for whatever reason. She must've been through hell; I can't imagine her humiliation. The young lady who was bullied by the mother on the internet kept her trouble hidden from her parents as well. She hung herself while they were fixing dinner downstairs.

It is a horrible, horrible situation for everyone.
 
Well, "blaming it on society as a whole" does not equal "nothing can be done". I actually have no problem with the idea of penalties for these people, because everyone must accept personal responsibility. BUT it is hypocritical, frustratingly so, when society in general demands that responsibility without acknowledging its own shared responsibility. That's what angers me. People insist on "taking responsibility" but really what they mean is "someone else take responsibility as the rest of us wipe our hands of it".

What sort of repsonsibilty should I take?

I have never bullied anyone in my life (though I was teased as a child). I have taught my children that bullying is wrong and hurtful. I have never laughed at anyone else being bullied and, when I was a child, would try and stop younger children from bullying. I admit I never stopped children my own age from bullying others but that was because I was scared of bullies (who were already picking on me).

I have to admit that all the teasing I recieved as a child came from girls as boys tended to like me - as I was a tomboy - and boys would stand up for me if they saw me being teased.

My mother wouldn't help me out with problems I had at school because she said 'I had to learn to fight my own battles).

I have only been bullied once in the workplace (by a man). In that situation one woman spoke up for me. It was only a temp library tech job so one day, after I had worked there a month, and when he was really being nasty I told him "You need me to be here more than I need this job. If you don't stop finding faults with me I just won't come in any more". As finding a replacement for me would be a problem for him, he restrained himself for the remainder of the three months I worked there. I had never applied for the permanent job as I didn't want to work fulltime permanently and because I knew that the manager was a bastard. The woman that was hired to replace me lasted all of two weeks. He phoned me up trying to get me to come back but I said no. He had all sorts of trouble getting library technicians because of his bullying. The state library refused to send anyone from their temp register to him as did the college that trained techs. Obviously they took this action because they cared about people under their care.
 
Well, "blaming it on society as a whole" does not equal "nothing can be done". I actually have no problem with the idea of penalties for these people, because everyone must accept personal responsibility. BUT it is hypocritical, frustratingly so, when society in general demands that responsibility without acknowledging its own shared responsibility. That's what angers me. People insist on "taking responsibility" but really what they mean is "someone else take responsibility as the rest of us wipe our hands of it".

What sort of repsonsibilty should I take?

I have never bullied anyone in my life.

Then in that case you have taken responsibility. :) My point is that individual self-analysis and responsibility is indeed essential (and you seem to have done that, and concluded that there is nothing you need to do to self-improve in this regard because you reject the attitudes and ideologies that allow for this sort of thing anyway), but alongside this is a collective responsibility that means we can't just resolve our problems by dumping blame on particular individuals and wiping our hands of it. If people are going to support the social system that lets this sort of thing happen- which through my own experience I can say a great many of them do- they have responsibility too. I've never believed that responsibility stops at the self. We all have responsibility for one another, because we all function in a shared society. If someone wants to be a part of that society, they must take partial responsibility for the whole and everyone in it. You can't just "buy out" when it suits you. People turn their backs and be silent and condone, if not support, abusive behaviours all the time. The only reason people are making a fuss over this one is because the right sort of victim took it to the extreme conclusion and now everyone's uncomfortable over it. If they really want things to change, though, they have to do more than say "villains identified. Case closed" and walk off feeling satisfied.
 
Well, "blaming it on society as a whole" does not equal "nothing can be done". I actually have no problem with the idea of penalties for these people, because everyone must accept personal responsibility. BUT it is hypocritical, frustratingly so, when society in general demands that responsibility without acknowledging its own shared responsibility. That's what angers me. People insist on "taking responsibility" but really what they mean is "someone else take responsibility as the rest of us wipe our hands of it".
What sort of repsonsibilty should I take?

I have never bullied anyone in my life.

Then in that case you have taken responsibility. :) My point is that individual self-analysis and responsibility is indeed essential (and you seem to have done that, and concluded that there is nothing you need to do to self-improve in this regard because you reject the attitudes and ideologies that allow for this sort of thing anyway), but alongside this is a collective responsibility that means we can't just resolve our problems by dumping blame on particular individuals and wiping our hands of it. If people are going to support the social system that lets this sort of thing happen- which through my own experience I can say a great many of them do- they have responsibility too. I've never believed that responsibility stops at the self. We all have responsibility for one another, because we all function in a shared society. If someone wants to be a part of that society, they must take partial responsibility for the whole and everyone in it. You can't just "buy out" when it suits you. People turn their backs and be silent and condone, if not support, abusive behaviours all the time. The only reason people are making a fuss over this one is because the right sort of victim took it to the extreme conclusion and now everyone's uncomfortable over it. If they really want things to change, though, they have to do more than say "villains identified. Case closed" and walk off feeling satisfied.

Nonsence, and i take great offence at that last line, who are you to tell me how i feel about this, like most people i am disgusted at this because i was shocked and have genuine feelings that a human being was driven to take their own life to escape these vile individuals who seem to lack any kind of conscience or human decency for others........or do i need to hold a starving dying child in my arm to somehow feel for that child.:rolleyes:

These men were responsible for the woman taking her life, end of story, they deserve too have been thrown in jail and punished for their actions, i nor anybody else on this board nor the population of this planet are responsible for their actions in any way shape or form, they alone did what they did and they alone should quite rightly be held fully responsible.

But if you want massively generalize about how society is to blame rather than the individuals then by all means do so, i of course will continue to sleep well at night knowing those responsible for the myriad of crimes against society will no doubt end up in a 6/12 cell away from those decent individuals in society.
 
I may be about to be a little controversial here but...what the heck. Please note that I'm very sorry for what happened to the lady but...

These men were responsible for the woman taking her life
No, no they're not. No matter what, the lady had options and she *chose* to stay in a horrible situation. Granted, the options may not have been great, but they were there and certainly better than being dead. Nobody killed her but herself.

As for the original question about what punishment the bullies deserve, I'm not much of one for punishment. It's always struck me as the oddest thing: "You did something wrong so now we're (society) is going to torture you for it." There's something very wrong with that picture, whther you're talking about a spanking or incarceration.

Restitution, now...yeah, that they were fined is appropriate and I hope that the fines (or most of them) went to the family. Not that that will bring her back, but it might make life a little better. But as part of that restitution, the bullies should be taught empathy by doing community service where they have to help people with low self-esteem or (as somebody else suggested) perhaps working on a suicide hotline.

Jan
 
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