What punishment do they deserve?

[Deranged Nasat]

What sort of repsonsibilty should I take?

I have never bullied anyone in my life.

Then in that case you have taken responsibility. My point is that individual self-analysis and responsibility is indeed essential (and you seem to have done that, and concluded that there is nothing you need to do to self-improve in this regard because you reject the attitudes and ideologies that allow for this sort of thing anyway), but alongside this is a collective responsibility that means we can't just resolve our problems by dumping blame on particular individuals and wiping our hands of it. If people are going to support the social system that lets this sort of thing happen- which through my own experience I can say a great many of them do- they have responsibility too. I've never believed that responsibility stops at the self. We all have responsibility for one another, because we all function in a shared society. If someone wants to be a part of that society, they must take partial responsibility for the whole and everyone in it. You can't just "buy out" when it suits you. People turn their backs and be silent and condone, if not support, abusive behaviours all the time. The only reason people are making a fuss over this one is because the right sort of victim took it to the extreme conclusion and now everyone's uncomfortable over it. If they really want things to change, though, they have to do more than say "villains identified. Case closed" and walk off feeling satisfied.

I of course will continue to sleep well at night knowing those responsible for the myriad of crimes against society will no doubt end up in a 6/12 cell away from those decent individuals in society.

No, they won't. Are you even listening? Are any of the people who drove me to almost try suicide in prison? No. Are any of the people who supported them or turned a blind eye? No.

You cannot divide the world into "decent people" and "others" in this clear cut manner. I assume you count yourself automatically among the first group? Why of course. So you are untouchable in terms of responsibilities. Why? Because you're "decent".

 

[Deranged Nasat]

These men were responsible for the woman taking her life, ....I nor anybody else on this board nor the population of this planet are responsible for their actions in any way shape or form, they alone did what they did and they alone should quite rightly be held fully responsible.

Contradiction. You claim these men are fully responsible, no one else, end of story. Yet you also claim the same is not true of the woman. You claim she is not alone fully responsible- apparently they are responsible for her actions too. So you've completely contradicted yourself within the space of two lines. Please explain this illogic.

[....because i was shocked and have genuine feelings that a human being was driven to take their own life to escape .....

Really? Shocked? Shocked? So, it comes as a huge surprise to you that people would be driven to suicide because of the abuse they've suffered? As someone who has been suicidal on and off for years, I'm quite irritated. Do you not notice? No, it's only when some worthy victim actually does it that you suddenly jump up. Because I guess you can't turn a blind eye any more to the way your society works. Turning away and ignoring won't work anymore. Finally, someone has to take responsibility- but never, never, never you. You're one of the "decent" ones, to whom social responsibility by magic does not touch. This is the hypocrisy- you claim to be more a part of society than they, yet they're the ones who have to take all the responsibility!

If you had any actual conception of many people's suffering and pain, this would not shock you in the least. So don't play the "empathy" card with talk of your "genuine feelings". I can assure you I have far more empathy with this woman than you, as a result of having been there. You clearly haven't, if this outcome comes as a shock to you. Your outrage, I must propose, is not motivated by empathy per se but by an instinctive desire to smooth a disturbed social order by ostracizing the outsider further, so as to put a stop to your feelings of distress now that your sense of propriety has been violated.

Then again, use of the term "human being" is up there with "think of the children!" for pointless hollow stock phrases that supposedly convey empathy but really just convey basic outrage that your ideological worldview has been unceremoniously upended.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Nasat, I think you need to take a step back from this discussion because you keep taking general comments personally when they're not. Then you keep turning around on the poster and make personal comments about their feelings and motivations which isn't fair.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Nasat, I think you need to take a step back from this discussion because you keep taking general comments personally when they're not. Then you keep turning around on the poster and make personal comments about their feelings and motivations which isn't fair.

Yes. Sorry, you're of course quite right. I will indeed (after this post) step back. My apologies. I can get very caught up in my feelings on this sort of topic and derail the thread. Thank you for the gwentle warning. I appreciate it.

 

[Kestra]

There are too many posts here for me to quote people, so I just wanted to make a few general comments in case anyone bothers to read this.

A few people have mentioned that the girl did not have to stay in that environment, that she most likely had other mental issues, and that her coworkers did not murder her. And it's true, they didn't push her off some building or stab her to death. But they were aware of her mental state and recklessly tormented her. They knew she was capable of attempting suicide at the very least, after her first attempt. I don't know what their intentions were, whether they wanted her to try again or not, but they must have known that her death was a strong possible outcome of their actions.

In terms of punishment, I really have no idea. Retribution is neither really possible nor worthwhile. I like the idea of them having to (in addition to traditional punishments) viewing other suicides and maybe just being educated more on the subject, and the impact suicides have on the people left behind.

Regarding the fact that some people here have been bullied or insulted and have not resorted to suicidal attempts ... it's really not the kind of thing you can compare. We're all made of different stuff, with unique personalities, chemical makeups, life circumstances. We all face different challenges. I have never been bullied in the traditional sense yet I've considered suicide. Suicide, depression, and indeed all mental illnesses are complex issues. One standard does not apply to all.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Emotionally torturing somebody with mental illness is no different than beating up a cripple. It's cowardly and reprehensible. These people need to be taught some Humanity, if that's possible; they're not in the best mental health themselves.

 

[Miss Chicken]

It is beyond my understanding how these three men could have tormented someone that they knew had tried to commit suicide. How could three so uncaring people be employed in the same small business?

 

[Haggis and tatties]

^^^Simply put they are vile poor excuses for human beings who managed to get away with it because it seems they had a boss who from what i can see was either vastly incompetent in their duty or maybe was just another vile excuss for a human being who allowed it to happen, either way it must have seemed to her like she was trapped no matter were she turned.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

It is beyond my understanding how these three men could have tormented someone that they knew had tried to commit suicide. How could three so uncaring people be employed in the same small business?

Because it isn't really about the individuals involved, it's the culture and the way society works overall. Outsiders are punished and driven away to boost the esteem of the social group. It isn't coincidental that these three people happened to be in the same place, it was a group response that happens anywhere the outsider is found. Indeed, it is happening now in people's responses to these three people. The more the victim in this case became the outsider, the more she had to be shunned, so the suicide attempts would make them more likely to attack, not less. Believe me, it is no shock, no surprise, nothing new to me to find that groups of people continue relentlessly abusing those they know to be in a very damaged and fragile state.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

It is beyond my understanding how these three men could have tormented someone that they knew had tried to commit suicide. How could three so uncaring people be employed in the same small business?

Because it isn't really about the individuals involved, it's the culture and the way society works overall. Outsiders are punished and driven away to boost the esteem of the social group. It isn't coincidental that these three people happened to be in the same place, it was a group response that happens anywhere the outsider is found. Indeed, it is happening now in people's responses to these three people. The more the victim in this case became the outsider, the more she had to be shunned, so the suicide attempts would make them more likely to attack, not less. Believe me, it is no shock, no surprise, nothing new to me to find that groups of people continue relentlessly abusing those they know to be in a very damaged and fragile state.

Do you really think your the only person to have some first hand knowledge of what its like to be bullied or of what its like outside in the real world, my god that's a arrogant assumption on your part, talking down to people as if your the only person to have some first hand knowledge of it and that somehow makes any other opinions on this matter somehow trivial, do i need to be standing over the body of somebody before i can show sympathy and disgust at those responsible.

 

[Miss Chicken]

It is beyond my understanding how these three men could have tormented someone that they knew had tried to commit suicide. How could three so uncaring people be employed in the same small business?

Because it isn't really about the individuals involved, it's the culture and the way society works overall. Outsiders are punished and driven away to boost the esteem of the social group. It isn't coincidental that these three people happened to be in the same place, it was a group response that happens anywhere the outsider is found. Indeed, it is happening now in people's responses to these three people. The more the victim in this case became the outsider, the more she had to be shunned, so the suicide attempts would make them more likely to attack, not less. Believe me, it is no shock, no surprise, nothing new to me to find that groups of people continue relentlessly abusing those they know to be in a very damaged and fragile state.

I disagree that it is the way that society works overall. I saw children behave this way when I was in school but nothing similar to what was done to this girl once I was in the workforce. I was in the workforce at 17. I worked at first in a supermarket and then two nursing homes. At no time did I see bullying. As an adult I worked in libraries and a couple of other workforces and the only time I know of bullying was the boss I mentioned who did hid bullying alone and to the person who was directly under him (i.e. myself).

I also lived in a poor neighbourhood (i.e most of the people were on welfare or on low incomes). Even though plenty of people had arguments I never saw bullying of the type you mentioned. When I was being bashed my now ex-husband neighbours came to my defence as they did with other women who were abused.

I know two brothers and their group of friends who were notorious bullies. They would pick on anyone weaker than them but they were probably the most despised people I know and their behaviour was not seen as normal. However even in this case there was a great deal of support offered to their victims. I have seen one elderly man wave his cane at this group of bullies when he saw them picking on a child in the bus mall. I have women tell children to wait outside the shopping centre rather than go to the bus mall because 'the Braslins were hanging around". One or two women would then go up to the mall and wait for the bus. When the bus arrived the women would ask the drivers to wait as the other women and children dashed from the shopping centre to the mall once they saw the bus arrived. This gang of bullies were banned from the shopping centre and from the buses. Sometimes the shopping centre security guards would waited with frightened children at the bus-stop.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

It is beyond my understanding how these three men could have tormented someone that they knew had tried to commit suicide. How could three so uncaring people be employed in the same small business?

Because it isn't really about the individuals involved, it's the culture and the way society works overall. Outsiders are punished and driven away to boost the esteem of the social group. It isn't coincidental that these three people happened to be in the same place, it was a group response that happens anywhere the outsider is found. Indeed, it is happening now in people's responses to these three people. The more the victim in this case became the outsider, the more she had to be shunned, so the suicide attempts would make them more likely to attack, not less. Believe me, it is no shock, no surprise, nothing new to me to find that groups of people continue relentlessly abusing those they know to be in a very damaged and fragile state.

Do you really think your the only person to have some first hand knowledge of what its like to be bullied or of what its like outside in the real world, my god that's a arrogant assumption on your part, talking down to people as if your the only person to have some first hand knowledge of it and that somehow makes any other opinions on this matter somehow trivial, do i need to be standing over the body of somebody before i can show sympathy and disgust at those responsible.

But my point is, you're not actually grasping where that responsibility lies. And with many people sympathy only manifests if the victim is the right sort of person.

And no, I'm not claiming in any way to be the only person or anything unique- is that not an implicit part of my point in saying that this sort of thing is widespread and built into the culture? It happens all over, although I'm pleased to hear Miss Chicken say her experience has been quite different.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Wow, what a horrible story. I can't imagine what was going through these guys' heads to not only do this constantly, but to not relent after she first tried to kill herself. It's just rediculous. As for what punishment is fair, I'm not sure. On one hand, I feel that something should be done, especially with the fact that they all realised that she wasn't entirely mentally stable but wouldn't back off, and actually used it as a new source of taunts. But at the same time, at what point do we start prosecuting behavior like this? After somebody dies? Right from the beginning? If it persists for a certain period of time? It's a tough situation because you can't wait until someone's dead, but at the same time you can't just prosecute everyone who decides to act like a shithead.

It is beyond my understanding how these three men could have tormented someone that they knew had tried to commit suicide. How could three so uncaring people be employed in the same small business?

Because it isn't really about the individuals involved, it's the culture and the way society works overall. Outsiders are punished and driven away to boost the esteem of the social group. It isn't coincidental that these three people happened to be in the same place, it was a group response that happens anywhere the outsider is found. Indeed, it is happening now in people's responses to these three people. The more the victim in this case became the outsider, the more she had to be shunned, so the suicide attempts would make them more likely to attack, not less. Believe me, it is no shock, no surprise, nothing new to me to find that groups of people continue relentlessly abusing those they know to be in a very damaged and fragile state.

I absolutely disagree with this. You're making it sound like behavior such as this is the rule and not the exception. There are bad people out there. There are people who will pick out what they feel are "easy" targets and harass them to their heart's content. But to say that these people are a direct result of society and are a representative of people in general is crap. Those folks aren't the only examples of people who behave like that. People like that tend to band together- strength in numbers, even against a "weak" opponent. I'll be the first to admit that I don't exactly have a ton of respect for society in general, but at the same time I refuse to buy into the idea that the reason I've never participated in behavior like this or support it is because I'm part of the proud minority with a moral compass.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Wow, what a horrible story. I can't imagine what was going through these guys' heads to not only do this constantly, but to not relent after she first tried to kill herself. It's just rediculous. As for what punishment is fair, I'm not sure. On one hand, I feel that something should be done, especially with the fact that they all realised that she wasn't entirely mentally stable but wouldn't back off, and actually used it as a new source of taunts. But at the same time, at what point do we start prosecuting behavior like this? After somebody dies? Right from the beginning? If it persists for a certain period of time? It's a tough situation because you can't wait until someone's dead, but at the same time you can't just prosecute everyone who decides to act like a shithead.

It is beyond my understanding how these three men could have tormented someone that they knew had tried to commit suicide. How could three so uncaring people be employed in the same small business?

Because it isn't really about the individuals involved, it's the culture and the way society works overall. Outsiders are punished and driven away to boost the esteem of the social group. It isn't coincidental that these three people happened to be in the same place, it was a group response that happens anywhere the outsider is found. Indeed, it is happening now in people's responses to these three people. The more the victim in this case became the outsider, the more she had to be shunned, so the suicide attempts would make them more likely to attack, not less. Believe me, it is no shock, no surprise, nothing new to me to find that groups of people continue relentlessly abusing those they know to be in a very damaged and fragile state.

I absolutely disagree with this. You're making it sound like behavior such as this is the rule and not the exception. There are bad people out there. There are people who will pick out what they feel are "easy" targets and harass them to their heart's content. But to say that these people are a direct result of society and are a representative of people in general is crap. Those folks aren't the only examples of people who behave like that. People like that tend to band together- strength in numbers, even against a "weak" opponent. I'll be the first to admit that I don't exactly have a ton of respect for society in general, but at the same time I refuse to buy into the idea that the reason I've never participated in behavior like this or support it is because I'm part of the proud minority with a moral compass.

So, your response to a case like this is to identify the outsider (the minority of "bad people") and shun them/drive them out/punish them to reaffirm a sense of social solidarity and group moral standards. That's exactly what I'm saying. It seems to me your response is just backing up my point.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

Wow, what a horrible story. I can't imagine what was going through these guys' heads to not only do this constantly, but to not relent after she first tried to kill herself. It's just rediculous. As for what punishment is fair, I'm not sure. On one hand, I feel that something should be done, especially with the fact that they all realised that she wasn't entirely mentally stable but wouldn't back off, and actually used it as a new source of taunts. But at the same time, at what point do we start prosecuting behavior like this? After somebody dies? Right from the beginning? If it persists for a certain period of time? It's a tough situation because you can't wait until someone's dead, but at the same time you can't just prosecute everyone who decides to act like a shithead.

Because it isn't really about the individuals involved, it's the culture and the way society works overall. Outsiders are punished and driven away to boost the esteem of the social group. It isn't coincidental that these three people happened to be in the same place, it was a group response that happens anywhere the outsider is found. Indeed, it is happening now in people's responses to these three people. The more the victim in this case became the outsider, the more she had to be shunned, so the suicide attempts would make them more likely to attack, not less. Believe me, it is no shock, no surprise, nothing new to me to find that groups of people continue relentlessly abusing those they know to be in a very damaged and fragile state.

I absolutely disagree with this. You're making it sound like behavior such as this is the rule and not the exception. There are bad people out there. There are people who will pick out what they feel are "easy" targets and harass them to their heart's content. But to say that these people are a direct result of society and are a representative of people in general is crap. Those folks aren't the only examples of people who behave like that. People like that tend to band together- strength in numbers, even against a "weak" opponent. I'll be the first to admit that I don't exactly have a ton of respect for society in general, but at the same time I refuse to buy into the idea that the reason I've never participated in behavior like this or support it is because I'm part of the proud minority with a moral compass.

So, your response to a case like this is to identify the outsider (the minority of "bad people") and shun them/drive them out/punish them to reaffirm a sense of social solidarity and group moral standards. That's exactly what I'm saying. It seems to me your response is just backing up my point.

Im sorry, if you think punishing these people is somehow wrong because its adhering to some outraged public morality fueled by a woman getting bullied by three men until she kills herself then i don't want to live in your world, why would i not want society to be up in arms over this, are you crazy...these three deserved a hell of a lot more than a slap on the wrist and a fine for what they did.....if that makes me part of some morality driven group that start baying for blood when they read or see something like this then by all means mark me up as one.

And that you even trying to compare what those vile three individuals did to what people are feeling and their opinions on those three are just ludicrous, are you really stating punishing these people is tantamount to what they did to that woman....i mean really is that what your saying, because people want to see these animal punished they are somehow just as bad as these three men who bullied that woman......

What a load of old nonsense.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Because it isn't really about the individuals involved, it's the culture and the way society works overall. Outsiders are punished and driven away to boost the esteem of the social group. It isn't coincidental that these three people happened to be in the same place, it was a group response that happens anywhere the outsider is found. Indeed, it is happening now in people's responses to these three people. The more the victim in this case became the outsider, the more she had to be shunned, so the suicide attempts would make them more likely to attack, not less. Believe me, it is no shock, no surprise, nothing new to me to find that groups of people continue relentlessly abusing those they know to be in a very damaged and fragile state.

I absolutely disagree with this. You're making it sound like behavior such as this is the rule and not the exception. There are bad people out there. There are people who will pick out what they feel are "easy" targets and harass them to their heart's content. But to say that these people are a direct result of society and are a representative of people in general is crap. Those folks aren't the only examples of people who behave like that. People like that tend to band together- strength in numbers, even against a "weak" opponent. I'll be the first to admit that I don't exactly have a ton of respect for society in general, but at the same time I refuse to buy into the idea that the reason I've never participated in behavior like this or support it is because I'm part of the proud minority with a moral compass.

So, your response to a case like this is to identify the outsider (the minority of "bad people") and shun them/drive them out/punish them to reaffirm a sense of social solidarity and group moral standards. That's exactly what I'm saying. It seems to me your response is just backing up my point.

I'm sorry, but how is relentless bullying and punishing people for doing something they're not supposed to even remotely in the same ballpark? Should we stop enforcing laws because it feeds into our cultural urges to purge the "outsiders"? Punishment happens because we need to maintain order and discourage law-breaking behavior. Bullying happens because some individuals or groups are just jackasses. Trying to pin the bullying on the culture is an incredible cop-out anyhow. It takes the responsibility off of the individuals, which is directly where it belongs.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Trying to pin the bullying on the culture is an incredible cop-out anyhow. It takes the responsibility off of the individuals, which is directly where it belongs.

Yet we see that so, so many of these individuals flat out refuse to accept responsibility in any way, shape or form. We are all responsible for the way in which we respond to cultural and social pressures, but they are very strong. Humans are social animals, and place the dynamics of the group above the individual. This is one reason why it's essential we all take individual responsibility, or otherwise the group mentality overides- and history should show you how easily that translates into highly troubling activities on a large scale.

Why can't people understand that it isn't an either/or binary paradigm? Yes, individual responsibility is essential, but unless everyone accepts it, it's merely pointless hypocrisy to try to invoke it with others. Believe me, it isn't the mythical "bad person" who is the problem, but rather the way in which society induces them to behave.

And if responsibility is entirely with the individual, why are we complaining about this person's suicide? If responsobility belongs directly with the individual, end of story, then it was she and she alone responsible for her suicide. Why make a fuss about these other people? Once again, we see one set of rules for her behaviour, another for theirs.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

[..... Punishment happens because we need to maintain order and discourage law-breaking behavior.

Did these people break any laws? What laws did they break? A case can be made for assault, but even then, since when have people who attacked others been disciplined for it? If bullying violates a law, then an awful lot of the population are law-breakers, too many to deal with effectively.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Im sorry, if you think punishing these people is somehow wrong because its adhering to some outraged public morality fueled by a woman getting bullied by three men until she kills herself then i don't want to live in your world, why would i not want society to be up in arms over this, are you crazy...these three deserved a hell of a lot more than a slap on the wrist and a fine for what they did.....if that makes me part of some morality driven group that start baying for blood when they read or see something like this then by all means mark me up as one.

And that you even trying to compare what those vile three individuals did to what people are feeling and their opinions on those three are just ludicrous, are you really stating punishing these people is tantamount to what they did to that woman....i mean really is that what your saying, because people want to see these animal punished they are somehow just as bad as these three men who bullied that woman......

What a load of old nonsense.

You just don't get it, do you? You just don't get it.


As for punishment being wrong, you still aren't grasping it. I'm entirely in favour of disciplining crininals and the like (though note I use the term discipline not "punishment"}, because I believe everyone has individual responsibility. Discipline is for the good of society. You, however, do not wish to discipline. You wish to punish. It's a response based in the same insticts and desires and feelings driving bullies, as I've explained. That isn't me saying you're the same as them, merely that the underlying instinct is the same, however it manifests. And, in opposition to the idea that individual responsibility is essential, you refuse to accept it.

The fact that you really seem to believe that my complaints here equate to a desire not to discipline criminals is very revealing- for you, it's punishment or nothing. Don't you understand that people can be jailed, etc, without any desire to punish them, merely to encourage individual responsibility and keep society safe and functional through discipline? But for such a system to work without being hypocritical, all must accept responsibility, not just those who are disciplined!

It seems clear to me that you are not driven by a desire to do what is best for society, but by moral zeal, and moral zeal has been responsible for pretty much every atrocity in history. It is a very, very dangerous state to be in. Already you are using it to justify calling other humans "vile" and "animals". And at the very whiff of the idea that people like me might be "sympathizers", you become aggressive towards us. Again, it is no different. I'm very frustrated that you can't- or won't-see this.

Finally, as has been pointed out, those who abuse/bully etc are often those who have been on the receiving end themselves. How is hating them and calling them "vile" to show them there is another side to social interactions, which you keep insisting there is? If the majority in society are opposed to such behaviour, why reinforce these people's sense that it is the only way by continuing to treat them like that?

 

[Kestra]

Maybe I'm reading this exchange incorrectly, but I really don't think you guys are that far apart in your beliefs. Wouldn't everyone here agree that there should be disciplinary action for the behavior displayed by these individuals? And that said action should be in accordance with the law?