What Picard Said in Nemesis

[Timo]

Um...No. No person has the right to order another person to be violated. Any person who would even consider doing such should not be in command in the first place.

But that's patently untrue. The very idea of a military organization hinges on the concept that person A can order person B to lose his or her limbs, eyes, half the face, and/or life, and person B has two options: to refuse (in which case he or she will be very harshly punished, typically with death, unless he or she can prove the order was illegal), or to obey.

There are other dimensions to this as well. Person A can also order person B to get captured by the enemy and be subjected to whatever cruelties the enemy is famed for. There's always the slim theoretical chance that person B can fufill his or her orders without getting maimed, killed or captured, but there is no obligation for person A to ensure the existence of such a chance, nor fault in him or her for ordering person B to his or her fate.

Against this background, it really sickens me to hear people say that a woman should not be "violated" on the course of her duty. Who the fuck cares if said woman is in psychological distress for a while, or gets her vagina torn, or whatnot? People are dying and being dismembered out there!

The chastity of a woman is not sacrosanct in a military organization. Sure, it's one of the nice principles the organization theoretically exists to protect - but its own members are exempt from the protection by definition. Similarly, the military is supposed to protect people from dying, but it achieves this by sending its own people to die.

It's a different matter how threats and protections work within a military organization. Troi should be safe from rape or coercion attempts from her colleagues. But there's no requirement for the colleagues to protect her from rape or coercion by outside forces if such protection would hinder the completion of a mission and endanger other people.

The specific case being discussed here is a non-starter: Troi was asked to give very little to protect a lot - a few nightmares vs. the lives of an entire starship crew and possibly of every person on Earth as well. Had Picard not exploited Troi in this occasion, he (and she) should have been subjected to the harshest of Starfleet punishments for treason.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ManaByte]

And yes, it's best to forget Nemesis. If you read Brent Spiner's Twitter it seems like even he has erased it from his memory.

Which is made all the more amusing by the fact that Brent Spiner has a writing credit for the film.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

Nemesis was written by John Logan.

Brent Spiner just has a story credit, which basically means he said "I think Data should die in this one."

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Um...No. No person has the right to order another person to be violated. Any person who would even consider doing such should not be in command in the first place.

But that's patently untrue. The very idea of a military organization hinges on the concept that person A can order person B to lose his or her limbs, eyes, half the face, and/or life, and person B has two options: to refuse (in which case he or she will be very harshly punished, typically with death, unless he or she can prove the order was illegal), or to obey.

There are other dimensions to this as well. Person A can also order person B to get captured by the enemy and be subjected to whatever cruelties the enemy is famed for. There's always the slim theoretical chance that person B can fufill his or her orders without getting maimed, killed or captured, but there is no obligation for person A to ensure the existence of such a chance, nor fault in him or her for ordering person B to his or her fate.

Against this background, it really sickens me to hear people say that a woman should not be "violated" on the course of her duty. Who the fuck cares if said woman is in psychological distress for a while, or gets her vagina torn, or whatnot? People are dying and being dismembered out there!

The chastity of a woman is not sacrosanct in a military organization. Sure, it's one of the nice principles the organization theoretically exists to protect - but its own members are exempt from the protection by definition. Similarly, the military is supposed to protect people from dying, but it achieves this by sending its own people to die.

It's a different matter how threats and protections work within a military organization. Troi should be safe from rape or coercion attempts from her colleagues. But there's no requirement for the colleagues to protect her from rape or coercion by outside forces if such protection would hinder the completion of a mission and endanger other people.

The specific case being discussed here is a non-starter: Troi was asked to give very little to protect a lot - a few nightmares vs. the lives of an entire starship crew and possibly of every person on Earth as well. Had Picard not exploited Troi in this occasion, he (and she) should have been subjected to the harshest of Starfleet punishments for treason.

Timo Saloniemi

Erm, hello, this is Starfleet we're talking about, this is the Federation. Stop comparing 21st century Earth based militaries with Starfleet because they're nothing alike. You're completely undermining Roddenberrys vision of the future, Star Trek as a whole isn't no utopia but the Federation and Starfleet are as close to it as you can get and no Starfleet captain in this type of future is going to give the order nor have the right to order someone to endure telepathic rape and torture.
To say Picard has the right to tell Troi to suffer more of this is turning Star Trek on it's head and making Star Trek darker and more dirty than in my eyes is acceptable.

Actually, where on Earth do you get the idea that a captain right now can order one of their crew to endure a second rape?

Anyway, even if t was just a request from picard for her to endure a second attack and wasn't an order that's not the point i'm making. The point i'm making is that it's sick that someone (and picard of all people) would request someone to suffer a second attack of that nature.

Troi: Shinzon's Viceroy seems to have the ability to reach into my thoughts. I've become a liability... I request to be relieved of my duties.
Picard: Permission denied. If you can possibly endure any more of these assaults, I need you at my side. Now more than ever, I—

You're missing out the whole scene where she makes it clear it was of a sexual nature and that she was violated. Nobody should request someone endure more of those attacks especially no Starfleet captain, especially not captain Picard. He might aswell have been ordering her to be violated physically, telepathy wise it would make no difference because it's just as real, all the same sensors of the brain are being effected.

When someone touches you physically it's nothing more than your brain processing that information, if someone can control your brain sensors so they process whatever information they send to you telepathically then there is absolutely no difference with how it would feel to the victim.
EVERYTHING in the end comes down to the brain, it's sensors and it's processing of the information.

 

[Trek Survivor]

but when he expresses confidence in his highly trained telepath and her ability to handle some punk kid with a boner, he's suddenly the king asshole.

It was the Reman viceroy she was being attacked by, he was the telepath and she was unable to stop his attack.

Oh, well if it was frickin' Nosferato over there, then of course he should've treated her as an incompetent weakling who was incapable of doing her job. Thank you for clarifying. Let's review the lines in question.

Troi: Shinzon's Viceroy seems to have the ability to reach into my thoughts. I've become a liability... I request to be relieved of my duties.
Picard: Permission denied. If you can possibly endure any more of these assaults, I need you at my side. Now more than ever, I—

She wasn't trying to go off duty because she was too traumatized to perform her duties, or because, as you seem to imply, her brain would be more exposed to danger on the bridge than in her quarters (where, you know, the attack happened). She did it because she thought it was possible the Viceroy could receive her thoughts as well as send thoughts to her, so she shouldn't be exposed to sensitive information. Picard, who was more clear-minded at the moment, recognized this was patent nonsense, and if the Viceroy were, indeed, capable of reading her thoughts, he'd be able to read anyone's thoughts, and keeping her locked up wouldn't help anyone.

Which means, amazingly, that the phrase "If you can possibly endure any more of these assaults" means the exact opposite of what you said. Picard wasn't telling her to stay on duty despite being traumatized, he was saying that if she actually was traumatized, then she could be relieved, but he wouldn't relieve her because of an irrational fear that she was a security risk.

Please everyone, REREAD this. For those of you arguing Picard's an idiot for saying this, read what he ACTUALLY SAYS. He's talking about having Troi by his side, not specifically ordering her to endure them. They're talking about her being relived of duty or not. The Reman Viceroy could 'mentally invade' her whether she was on duty or not. Picard's point was about her status as being ON DUTY, not encouraging her to allow more attacks.

Oh, but of course, we mustn't interrupt the oh-so innovative and refreshing Nemesis bashing

Sigh.

 

[Timo]

Erm, hello, this is Starfleet we're talking about, this is the Federation. Stop comparing 21st century Earth based militaries with Starfleet because they're nothing alike.

But in this specific respect, the two are EXACTLY alike. That is, both models demonstrably and explicitly have the feature that person A can order person B to die or get injured in a horrible way, thereby making it atrocious in comparison to claim that person B should be kept safe from rape at all costs.

Actually, where on Earth do you get the idea that a captain right now can order one of their crew to endure a second rape?

It's not that I'd be quoting a regulation or a precedent, it's that such a thing must never be held in greater contempt than a captain orderning one of the crew to die or be injured.

Of course, a superior is entitled to order a female soldier to be raped by inference: she can be ordered to a mission where she will face a near-certain risk of capture and rape.

What Picard did had of course few of the elements of the above: as Trek Survivor says, he did not order Troi into a situation where her chances of getting raped/mindraped/whatever would be increased. As I said, the specific issue under discussion is a non-starter; it's the wider issue of "rape is worse than death or dismemberment", aka "war should be hell, except in certain arbitrary respects" that I am highly critical about.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Whoa Nellie]

And yes, it's best to forget Nemesis. If you read Brent Spiner's Twitter it seems like even he has erased it from his memory.

Which is made all the more amusing by the fact that Brent Spiner has a writing credit for the film.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

Nemesis was written by John Logan.

Brent Spiner just has a story credit, which basically means he said "I think Data should die in this one."

Screenplay by
JOHN LOGAN

Story by
JOHN LOGAN & RICK BERMAN & BRENT SPINER

Meaning Logan, Berman and Spiner co-authored the story while Logan wrote the screenplay.

Bottom line: Spiner himself helped create the Nemesis story.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Alex1939]

I don't know how this is controversial.

If you are in the military and captured, your trained not to reveal sensitive information. If rape is threatened that doesn't alleviate your obligations. So clearly people are ordered to endure physical abuse if necessary for the larger purpose.


More importantly, they are trying to prevent a ship from reaching Earth where the ship's objectives are to DESTROY earth! Picard ordered Troi, "if she could endure the attacks" to do so because it could give them an advantage. If you watch the movie, it did!

 

[David cgc]

Troi: Shinzon's Viceroy seems to have the ability to reach into my thoughts. I've become a liability... I request to be relieved of my duties.
Picard: Permission denied. If you can possibly endure any more of these assaults, I need you at my side. Now more than ever, I—

You're missing out the whole scene where she makes it clear it was of a sexual nature and that she was violated. Nobody should request someone endure more of those attacks especially no Starfleet captain, especially not captain Picard.

He wasn't requesting her to endure more attacks. Whether she was attacked again was completely out of their control.

Let me say that again. Neither Picard nor Troi had any power at all over whether or not the Viceroy and Shinzon would attempt another attack. It is completely counterfactual to say Picard's words in any way could have encouraged her to somehow raise the likelihood she would be attacked. If you think they could, please, explain the actual actions Picard was ordering her to take that would placed her in additional danger.

The issue wasn't whether or not she would be allowed to be attacked again, it was whether or not she was competent to fulfill her duties. Troi clearly thought she was, because she requested to be relieved because she was a potential security risk, not because she was emotionally compromised. Now, Deanna Troi is a highly trained psychologist, speaking to a trusted friend of fifteen years. She is the last person on that ship who would find another excuse to go off duty because she was too proud to say an obviously traumatic experience had left her emotionally compromised. So if she had been traumatized, she would've said so. She said she wasn't, so she was wasn't.

And so when Picard said, "I need you by my side, so long as you can continue to hold up under these attacks," he was giving her an out if she did decide that she had become emotionally compromised and unfit for duty.

 

[Grant]

I remember watching Nemesis in the theatre and cringing when Picard said this line. A lady sitting behind me gasped and left the theatre.

It was a horrible line.

I believe that part about the lady behind you leaving as much as i believe the moon is made of cheese. Worst way to make a point.

 

[Grant]

Hey use your brains.

Taking her off duty wouldn't have prevented more mind-rapes.

She was asking to be relieved of duty, not for someone to prevent mind-rapes.

Picard was saying that she should try to stay strong and help the ship/crew despite thse attacks.

And guess what, they made a point of showing her using the connection with Shinzon to locate the scimitar during the battle.

The pathalogical sickness some folks have in wanting to tear down this movie in every way is pathetic.

sorry if any sane person has made this point before---I didn't read every post.

Okay sorry David cgc,you beat me to it. I'm glad there are some people in here without an insane agenda.

 

[noknowes]

Um...No. No person has the right to order another person to be violated. Any person who would even consider doing such should not be in command in the first place.

But that's patently untrue. The very idea of a military organization hinges on the concept that person A can order person B to lose his or her limbs, eyes, half the face, and/or life, and person B has two options: to refuse (in which case he or she will be very harshly punished, typically with death, unless he or she can prove the order was illegal), or to obey.

There are other dimensions to this as well. Person A can also order person B to get captured by the enemy and be subjected to whatever cruelties the enemy is famed for. There's always the slim theoretical chance that person B can fufill his or her orders without getting maimed, killed or captured, but there is no obligation for person A to ensure the existence of such a chance, nor fault in him or her for ordering person B to his or her fate.

Against this background, it really sickens me to hear people say that a woman should not be "violated" on the course of her duty. Who the fuck cares if said woman is in psychological distress for a while, or gets her vagina torn, or whatnot? People are dying and being dismembered out there!

The chastity of a woman is not sacrosanct in a military organization. Sure, it's one of the nice principles the organization theoretically exists to protect - but its own members are exempt from the protection by definition. Similarly, the military is supposed to protect people from dying, but it achieves this by sending its own people to die.

It's a different matter how threats and protections work within a military organization. Troi should be safe from rape or coercion attempts from her colleagues. But there's no requirement for the colleagues to protect her from rape or coercion by outside forces if such protection would hinder the completion of a mission and endanger other people.

The specific case being discussed here is a non-starter: Troi was asked to give very little to protect a lot - a few nightmares vs. the lives of an entire starship crew and possibly of every person on Earth as well. Had Picard not exploited Troi in this occasion, he (and she) should have been subjected to the harshest of Starfleet punishments for treason.

Timo Saloniemi

Ditto.

Thanks Timo for your eloquence.