What killed the Chakotary character?

[KimMH]

I think the opportunities to start anew would be very promising to anyone tired of the same old solutions, people surviving WWIII (circa First Contact) might be even more interested in escaping Earth and finding a new/old way to live. As a POC I think many like me might be more invested in finding a separate path that doesn't conform to what is considered normal.

 

[Red Ranger]

I like the Romulan idea too. But equally it could have been done with a Cardassian crew. Of course then, there'd be no Seska reveal - unless revealed as a Romulan spy.

Hey, Mirandafave, Kimc, Kes7: Thanks for the love. Exodus, ! Fooey on you! As for McNeil's light hair and eyes, that's why I thought he could be cast as either (a) another alien life form that lives in the Romulan Empire, or (b) a human defector to the Romulan Empire, for whatever reason, or (c) like Simon Tarsis (sp?) in The Drumhead, someone who's part Romulan. The reason I'd prefer Romulans is because they haven't been used as much as the Kllingons, and the Cardassians were used quite a bit in DSN. BTW, Martha Hackett could have easily been a Romulan, as she played one in DSN ep The Search, Pt. II. -- RR

That's "Phooey" with a "PH", my man.

It's phonetic! -- RR

 

[Red Ranger]

I believe that before Starfleet was up and running, there probably was a period of time when many indendent colony missions launched from Earth right after Zefrem Cochrane discovered warp drive, notwithstanding the Vulcans. So several folks on reservations decided, "Screw this, let's find new homes out there." Chakotay is a descendant of such early missions. -- RR

Why from reservations?

You do know that most indigenous people in the US don't live on reservations, right?

Since Jeri Taylor made him a nominal Mayan, I tend to think Chakotay's people were revivalists. There's a great deal of interest among 2nd & 3rd generation indigenous immigrants in their historical languages and cultures in SoCal now--much as Irish-American parents in NY send their kids to step-dancing classes, so you've got Aztec classes for kids.

I tend to think those who'd undertake a journey like that would need to be well-educated in the very technology they were intending on ditching once they arrived at their destination.

Yes, I misspoke about reservations. A bad cliche, sorry. Living in New York City, I know no Native Americans, although I do know there is still a small community here. I like your idea of revivalists, folks who use technology to find a simpler lifestyle away from the carnage of post-World War III Earth. Makes complete sense to me. -- RR

 

[Fish1941]

In order of importance, first, dropping the 'shroomatron (or peyote-izer.) Without this mechanical gateway to spirituality, Chakotay's Indian character, instead of a projection of a possible future Indian religion, broke down into a characterless, generic Indian.

Second, Seska being revealed as a Cardassian agent devalued his competence as a leader. When he plaintively asked whether anybody was working for him, drama wise, the answer was, pretty much, just Torres. Ir'a like cutting of a testicle. And Seska basically raping him of sperm (even if they undid it after Piller left,) cut off the other testicle.

Third, the notion of the Maquis as Assholes in Space. Scenes where Chakotay manhandles women (Torres in Extreme Risk or Seven in Human Error) are even worse than Chakotay manhandling his own men (Learning Curve, I think.) This is not leadership. Plus, the general dimwittedness of the Maquis concept meant that Chakotary didn't even had a different perspective to offer. War against the Cardassians was not an option.

The Captain makes the decisions, especially in the excessively militarized Berman/Piller/Taylor Star Trek. So when Janeway makes the decisions (which is to say, is the dramatic center of the show,) that doesn't make her castrating.

Having such a weak second meant that every time Chakotay offered opposition, it was weakened because Chakotay had nothing in his character plausibly motivating it. In pretty much every serious clash with Janeway, his mulish opposition was pretty much counsel to give up a course of action, without offering alternatives. Scorpion was the closest to Chakotary becoming a character making choices for comprehensible. It is no accident it was one of his finest hours.

I don't recall Chakotay's character being killed - physical or otherwise. And couldn't you have rephrased the title of your thread to express an opinion, instead of as something that we're supposed to accept as fact?

 

[Guy Gardener]

However I totally meant to say Reservations.

It's not a question of how many people live on this reserved land, but that because of war and massive changes in the political strife in the area and that both the local and federal governments had collapsed, that the organizations which did rise up to replace the United States of America were not bound to the agreements made to the native Americans by the United states of America.

Ever played Risk?

Deals and treaties are so damn fluid it's unbelievable after some nations population halves in the space of a few minutes while some bugger is rolling consecutive triple sixes.

Alternately the collapse of the Republic would have been an ideal moment for the minds controlling the Reservations to choose to expand their borders before some new power decided to shift some weight around, that in 2151 the Indians might have been in charge again and it was their decision to become one political powerblock with the rest of the planet?

 

[stj]

I don't recall Chakotay's character being killed - physical or otherwise. And couldn't you have rephrased the title of your thread to express an opinion, instead of as something that we're supposed to accept as fact?

Well, no. Really, I couldn't even proofread it , could I?

There are three unpopular characters on Voyager. Neelix is homely and isn't a winner, which explains why he's unpopular. Kim is a male ingenue, which explains why he's unpopular. There is no immediately obvious reason why the Chakotay character is unpopular. So in that sense the character died, i.e., metaphorically was killed by some unknown assailant. The OP was speculation as to the perp.

Reasons why the Chakotay character was in fact successful would be a fascinating contrast to prevailing opinion (which might be bbs groupthink?)

 

[Allyn Gibson]

It would have been a lot more interesting if the Voyager crew had to work with an actual enemy.

Here's what I'd have done, had I been in charge of Voyager.

Season 1 takes place entirely in the Alpha Quadrant. Janeway and her ship is assigned to flush out Maquis cells in the Badlands. That's the overarching plot, though there's still room for TNG-ish "strange new worlds" adventures in the Alpha Quadrant.

The "big bad" for the first season is the mysterious Chakotay. And we see Chakotay do some seriously bad things. Perhaps there's even an episode that shows us the conflict from Chakotay's perspective. At the time, reviewers would say "Oh, this is Star Trek being edgy, doing an all-'bad guys' episode."

Then, "Caretaker" is the season 1 cliffhanger. Half of the main cast is killed, like Janeway's first officer, medical officer, etc.

You expect that in the season 2 opener, Janeway is going to pull a rabbit out of the hat, return to the Alpha Quadrant, and capture Chakotay. Only, it doesn't happen that way, and the ship is stranded in the Delta Quadrant.

Some characters that fans had grown to know and love are dead. Some characters fans had accepted as villains are now, if not heroes, then reluctant allies. And we'd have some idea of Chakotay as a leader.

Instead, Chakotay was basically fiated as a leader, and he was never developed enough afterwards for it to work.

 

[kes7]

It would have been a lot more interesting if the Voyager crew had to work with an actual enemy.

Here's what I'd have done, had I been in charge of Voyager.

Season 1 takes place entirely in the Alpha Quadrant. Janeway and her ship is assigned to flush out Maquis cells in the Badlands. That's the overarching plot, though there's still room for TNG-ish "strange new worlds" adventures in the Alpha Quadrant.

The "big bad" for the first season is the mysterious Chakotay. And we see Chakotay do some seriously bad things. Perhaps there's even an episode that shows us the conflict from Chakotay's perspective. At the time, reviewers would say "Oh, this is Star Trek being edgy, doing an all-'bad guys' episode."

Then, "Caretaker" is the season 1 cliffhanger. Half of the main cast is killed, like Janeway's first officer, medical officer, etc.

You expect that in the season 2 opener, Janeway is going to pull a rabbit out of the hat, return to the Alpha Quadrant, and capture Chakotay. Only, it doesn't happen that way, and the ship is stranded in the Delta Quadrant.

Some characters that fans had grown to know and love are dead. Some characters fans had accepted as villains are now, if not heroes, then reluctant allies. And we'd have some idea of Chakotay as a leader.

Instead, Chakotay was basically fiated as a leader, and he was never developed enough afterwards for it to work.

As brilliant as that idea is, you know the outcry from season 1-2 would have been too bad, though. Killing off half the main cast and replacing them with bad guys may be great storytelling, but it's not a crowd-pleasing move.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

The conflict between the two could have easily been manufactured by having Voyager be the ship that was chasing the Maquis vessel. Paris would already have be on board, having helped Janeway find the location of their hideout.

Voyager would then have forced the Maquis ship into an area of the Badlands that most ships wouldn't dare enter, Voyager follows them determined to capture the ship and then boom, they both get scanned and whisked off to the Delta Quadrant.

 

[Lynx]

I don't recall Chakotay's character being killed - physical or otherwise. And couldn't you have rephrased the title of your thread to express an opinion, instead of as something that we're supposed to accept as fact?

I agree here. Chakotay wasn't killed or destroyed in any way, at least not until "Endgame" where he was turned into a wimp. Otherwise it was a good character, very under-used in seasons 4-7 but still a good character.

There were some flaws in his background story and they could have given him a proper tribe to start with. Otherwise I do regard Chakotay as one of the best Star trek characters, definitely one of my favorites.

 

[Tachyon]

I agree here. Chakotay wasn't killed or destroyed in any way, at least not until "Endgame" where he was turned into a wimp. Otherwise it was a good character, very under-used in seasons 4-7 but still a good character.

There were some flaws in his background story and they could have given him a proper tribe to start with. Otherwise I do regard Chakotay as one of the best Star trek characters, definitely one of my favorites.

Well said Lynx.