What is the "Time Barrier"

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Valid points, but those do not support the contention that Enterprise can be authoritative as to TOS. As for whether TNG can, we'd have a long night ahead of us, but that is not the present argument.

Who cares? TOS is not the only Trek. In terms of canon, it is no more or less valid than any other Trek TV series or film. They are all equal contributors to canon. Even if you believe that anything other than TOS sucks, and thus you intend to ignore it, that doesn't change anything.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

Sound Barrier = Time Barrier

Subsonic planes < 1947 > Supersonic planes

Starships can't break the TB < The Cage > Starships can break the TB

Seriously, what's difficult about this?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Indeed. In "General Trek" no one series has "authority" over another. I'm no fan of Voyager or STV but on matters of General Trek Canon and Continuity I'll give what they had to say a fair shake.

 

[Timo]

I'm sure the intent at the time was that warp drive had been invented recently.

I'm not so sure. If so, how did the Columbia get to Talos? There's no attempt to imply that the ship would have been generational, or equipped with stasis or other classic scifi trickery. Vina was listed as a crew member in Number One's records - such records couldn't exist if Vina were of the n'th generation on a space ark. And the fake survivors don't give any indication of having been away from Earth longer than the 18 castaway years. Joe Tyler tells them they will get "back" to Earth, not that they will see it for the first time in their lives...

There would seem to have been an improvement in speed, but the Columbia would supposedly have had a faster-than-light drive already.

Now, putting this all in the Trek context is another issue, and an oft-tackled and enjoyable one. We can speculate to our hearts' content, as we don't have to pay any heed to the intent of the writers there. The nature of TOS as an episodic series taking place in one and the same continuity already requires us to ignore writer intent for any given episode so that it fits the greater whole.

So essentially, we can invent meanings related to the word "time" that aren't just variations of the theme "time barrier is the dramatic analogy of the sound barrier". Anything goes. Perhaps the "barrier" is an engineering problem named after some scientist or engineer or test pilot called Tyme, now cleverly solved or circumvented? Perhaps it's a physical barrier that used to block the route between Talos and Earth, and while the Columbia had to go around it, the Enterprise is strong enough to push through with impunity?

No other aspect of Star Trek requires us to believe that ships got significantly faster between the crash of the Columbia and the events of "The Cage". Indeed, ENT would postulate top speeds in the range of warp 6-7 around 2160, while TOS suggests that warp 8 was new territory in the 2260s - hardly a major leap.

Timo Saloniemi

P.S. What is it with basic politeness this past weekend? Not only is 3DMaster doing his usual thing - Beaker also sounded downright rude here, which really isn't the norm. Can't we just get along, people?

 

[erastus25]

Warp drive was discovered by Zephram Cochrane over 150 years prior to TOS.

Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centuri ...

the discoverer of the space warp?

That's right, Captain.

But that's impossible. Zefram Cochrane died 150 years ago.

Vina's ship crashed 18 years before "The Cage". Add on the 13 years beween "The Cage" and TOS you have 31 years. Not even close to the preWarp time frame of 150 years ago.

Also, consider that it would have taken centuries for the Columbia to get to Talos without some kind of FTL drive (we know this based on the fact that it took the Enterprise quite a while to get to Talos in the Menagarie, and they were going much faster than warp 1!).

And if that's not enough, here's some more proof that time warp capability has been around for quite some time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdu7xoHU9DA

 

[NiteTrek]

In the MENAGERIE it seems to be a big deal that they have 'broken the Time Barrier'. When I saw that episode the first time, way way back when it first aired, I always took it to mean that they finally were able to travel at Warp Speed...

Actually it meant that none of them had to wear watches any longer.

 

[Guartho]

What is the "Time Barrier"

The Time Barrier is well and thoroughly broken. Next question.

 

[ChristopherPike]

What is the "Time Barrier"

The Time Barrier is well and thoroughly broken. Next question.

I have something of interest related to all this. I watched 'The Menagerie' yesterday. It occurred to me that warp drive isn't actually mentioned in those pre-Kirk scenes... hyper drive is. Is it conceivable that was another failed advancement along the way, like Excelsior's transwarp 30+ years later?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What is the "Time Barrier"

The Time Barrier is well and thoroughly broken. Next question.

I have something of interest related to all this. I watched 'The Menagerie' yesterday. It occurred to me that warp drive isn't actually mentioned in those pre-Kirk scenes... hyper drive is. Is it conceivable that was another failed advancement along the way, like Excelsior's transwarp 30+ years later?

Hyper drive, warp drive, what's the difference. I always view them as the same thing.

 

[Anwar]

If Starfleet changed their uniform like 3 times in 30 years they can change terminology as well.

 

[cmdr_forst]

The "time barrier" discussion is all well and good, but what about Spock yelling for rockets so the ship can blast out? Or was that not shown in either parts of "The Menagerie" and only in "The Cage?"

 

[Carpe Occasio]

It's called the "time barrier" because, as we all know, that's footage from the unapproved pilot "The Cage". The show was reworked and the pilot "Where No Man Has Gone Before" was green lighted. They later worked that footage into "The Menagerie" even though it didn't really mesh with the new outline of the show (time barrier vs warp drive, Spock smiling and yelling all the time vs having no emotions, etc.). Even "Where No Man Has Gone Before" doesn't really "fit". After that pilot was produced they made more changes (like the uniforms, removing the little flexi screens from Kirks chair and other consoles, replacing the doctor with McCoy, etc.). And to top it all off, the pilot wasn't even the first show broadcast. "The Man Trap" and "Charlie X" were shown first, then "Where No Man Has Gone Before." How's that for confusing? Go figure.

 

[TIN_MAN]

'rockets' are by definition, 'impulse' drives. Hence impulse engine = rocket engine. Likewise, 'space' and 'time' are part of a four dimensional 'space/time' continuum, so to warp space is to warp time, hence 'space warp' = 'time warp'. Pike uses the term "time/warp factor" to discribe the speed of the ship, this would later be simplified to 'warp factor'. The static space warp-bubble discoveerd by Cochran allows impulse-rocket engines to cheat the lightspeed limit, but the later developed warp drive uses a dynamic vortex of the fabric of space/time to propel a ship at greater velocities.

 

[Kryton]

Re: The Rockets:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=1696691&postcount=184

But still.

 

[Nimravus]

This is silly.

I agree with what Carpeoccasio said. It doesn't mesh with the rest of the series because it isn't exactly the same series. Any line taken from The Cage should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[erastus25]

'rockets' are by definition, 'impulse' drives. Hence impulse engine = rocket engine. Likewise, 'space' and 'time' are part of a four dimensional 'space/time' continuum, so to warp space is to warp time, hence 'space warp' = 'time warp'. Pike uses the term "time/warp factor" to discribe the speed of the ship, this would later be simplified to 'warp factor'. The static space warp-bubble discoveerd by Cochran allows impulse-rocket engines to cheat the lightspeed limit, but the later developed warp drive uses a dynamic vortex of the fabric of space/time to propel a ship at greater velocities.

I think you're absolutely right. The idea of time/space being fully integrated is often forgotten/ignored. The Traveler would be ashamed.

 

[Lt. Tyler]

Just a throw away piece a dialog from the first pilot. People have got to stop treating every line of dialog like it was written in stone.

Excuse me. That is NOT a throwaway piece of dialog. It is established FACT in the Star Trek universe. It is canon. If the time barrier had been broken prior to 2236 as Star Trek:Enterprise and First Contact establishes then it was not be news to the crew of the SS Columbia in 2254.

 

[Kor]

Welcome to the BBS Lt. Tyler. You make a good point about the on-screen dialog, which appeared in the aired two-part episode "The Menagerie," thus becoming part of "cannnnnnon." However, I don't think the writers ever intended for viewers to dissect such things in great detail as fans tend to do nowadays.

Also, going forward, you may not want to reply to threads that are more than a few weeks old. Notice that this one is from 2008 (seven years ago). The discussion was already long gone, dead, and buried. A forum moderator will probably be along shortly to lock this thread, as that is standard operating procedure here.

Kor

 

[Silvercrest]

You're excusing someone who posted over seven years ago.

Edited: Arrgh, ninja'd! Curse you, Kor, you Klingon @#$%!

 

[Kor]

I love it when that happens.

Kor