What is the Mars Perimeter? From BoBW

[Marsden]

What the hell were those 3 things? Were they ships or missles?

Why did they move very slowly in a straight line?

I saw some people talking about the Mars Perimeter in the General thread but this is more of TNG question.

Also, I think that scene hurt the show rather than helped it, I think it should have been cut and the budget used for something else.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

What the hell were those 3 things? Were they ships or missles?

Why did they move very slowly in a straight line?

I saw some people talking about the Mars Perimeter in the General thread but this is more of TNG question.

Also, I think that scene hurt the show rather than helped it, I think it should have been cut and the budget used for something else.

From what I understand they were unmanned craft of some kind. Whether they were missiles of fighters isn't really made clear.

What is made clear how ridiculously ineffective they were when the Borg destroyed them with one shot each and never even broke stride to do it.

What is hilarious is how Worf and the others seemed to be genuinely shocked when he informs them that the Borg has broken through the Mars Defense Perimeter (Again how 3 ships can be a perimeter is a mystery to me)

It's clear the actors didn't have a clue what they were going to show the audience for that shot. Otherwise when Worf informed them of the breakthrough Riker would have said "No kidding. What the hell did you expect. The damn thing just decimated 40 starships. Did you really think 3 small, slow moving, slightly penis shaped craft of some sort were going to blow the Borg away?"

I gotta give the writers credit though. Right in the middle of one of the most intense sequences in ST history they found a way to make me actually burst out loud laughing.

 

[Timo]

It should be noted that this perimeter apparently protects Mars, rather than being some sort of a Martian-orbit-level element of Earth's defenses. The Borg are deliberately touring all the major planets and attacking their defenses; we hear of a fight at Jupiter, see the Cube paying a visit to Saturn, and then there's this fight. Heck, even the Borg decision to stop at Wolf 359 falls into this category of "deliberately picking up local fights".

A standard meticulous Borg effort to assimilate every single aspect of a species' defensive technologies and techniques before going for the actual target? Or a devious Picard plot to delay the Borg? Either way, the pattern is there; no need to complain about astronomically low odds of encounter or whatnot.

FWIW, the missile attack shows how much success Riker would have enjoyed in trying to ram the Cube...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Heck, even the Borg decision to stop at Wolf 359 falls into this category of "deliberately picking up local fights".

The Borg didn't "decide to stop" at Wolf 359 "to pick up local fights." Wolf 359 was where Starfleet chose to engage the Borg, presumably by figuring out the cube's flight path and deciding that this was the best spot where they would rendezvous for battle. It's not like the ships were already there, sitting around doing nothing, and the Borg just destroyed them for the hell of it. If Starfleet hadn't engaged them there, the Borg would have just flown right by.

As for the OP, I wouldn't have minded if they'd actually made this scene more of a battle instead of three little drone ships flying toward the cube and getting destroyed without ever firing a shot. Sure would have been nice to see a fleet of actual starships engaging them at Mars and getting destroyed too. But sadly they neither had the time or the money to actually show such a battle until DS9's "Emissary" (and even then the battle was only limited to five ships, not forty.)

 

[enterprisecvn65]

It should be noted that this perimeter apparently protects Mars, rather than being some sort of a Martian-orbit-level element of Earth's defenses. The Borg are deliberately touring all the major planets and attacking their defenses; we hear of a fight at Jupiter, see the Cube paying a visit to Saturn, and then there's this fight. Heck, even the Borg decision to stop at Wolf 359 falls into this category of "deliberately picking up local fights".

A standard meticulous Borg effort to assimilate every single aspect of a species' defensive technologies and techniques before going for the actual target? Or a devious Picard plot to delay the Borg? Either way, the pattern is there; no need to complain about astronomically low odds of encounter or whatnot.

FWIW, the missile attack shows how much success Riker would have enjoyed in trying to ram the Cube...

Timo Saloniemi

But IIRC isn't Utopia Planita Shipyard, the largest and most important construction site in starfleet (at least before they started building starships in Riverside, Iowa) located on Mars? Seems to me that reason alone would be enough to have a rather strong defensive force in place and not just three little ships.

 

[Timo]

The Borg didn't "decide to stop" at Wolf 359 "to pick up local fights." Wolf 359 was where Starfleet chose to engage the Borg, presumably by figuring out the cube's flight path and deciding that this was the best spot where they would rendezvous for battle. It's not like the ships were already there, sitting around doing nothing, and the Borg just destroyed them for the hell of it. If Starfleet hadn't engaged them there, the Borg would have just flown right by.

The second-to-last sentence above in fact rather precisely describes what happened.

That is, we saw the Borg at a standstill, making their usual threats at a similarly immobile Starfleet force that hadn't even armed weapons yet, and then the battle ensued. There was no sign that anybody but Locutus had done anything to stop the Borg progress towards Earth.

We know how Starfleet stops ships that try to warp past a blockade: they shoot at them with conventional weapons until they drop out of warp (say, how Reynolds forced Sisko out of warp when mistaking him for a Jem'Hadar). We know what happens when they try this with the Borg: two seconds of frantic radio traffic from Typhon, and the Borg continue at warp. And we can easily tell this did not happen at Wolf 359.

Seems to me that reason alone would be enough to have a rather strong defensive force in place and not just three little ships.

Why should we think it was three little ships? Those might have been the last three out of fifty hundred: Mars was at point blank range already, after all.

There was a somewhat prolonged fight at Jupiter before this one, as we hear in the dialogue. We saw none of that; we're lucky we got to see even part of the one involving Mars.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Well, the fight at Jupiter may have been spectacular, but there isn't necessarily anything to note how LONG it lasted. From dialogue:

SHELBY
The Borg have dropped out of warp,
sir... Jupiter Outpost Nine-Two
reported visual contact at twelve
hundred hours, thirteen minutes...

RIKER
Planetary defenses?

SHELBY
Responding. No reports on
effectiveness... but I can't
believe that against the Borg...

...And that's all we hear of it. Would Starfleet have massed anything with impulse power to put up a fight there, assuming anything with moderate warp capacity would have been sent to Wolf 359, leaving basically nothing left at Mars? And what WOULD Jupiter's planetary defenses consist of - satellites, lunar-based weapons, and Jupiter Station? It's not like there's much need to defend the planet itself...

Mark

 

[Timo]

We have seen in DS9 how deadly fixed fortifications are against starships. And assuming such fortifications exist everywhere in the UFP, the Klingon Empire and all the other major realms is just about the only way to explain why interstellar wars aren't won overnight by individual marauding starships. So I'm willing to believe in lots of death-ray satellites around all the major planets orbiting Jupiter (the ones we call "moons" today, for lack of a systematic approach). Plus missile batteries and other such stuff that cannot be readily redeployed, thus warranting an "in detail" treatment from the Borg.

The DS9 defenses were of very short range, mind you, so each Jovian world would probably have to fend for herself. And we might well have missed the six thousand phaser-sats around Mars simply because none were in range during the seconds that the camera showed us.

But what we did see of the Borg Grand Tour through the Sol system allows us to believe in two opposite scenarios:

1) The Borg just made close flybys for unknown reasons, not destroying much, and communications were silenced because of nonlethal jamming or because the defenders realized their helplessness and understood the virtue of staying vewy, vewy quiet.

2) The Borg carefully destroyed all resistance so that it wouldn't come to bother them when they settled on Earth orbit and began their at least days-long work of assimilating.

The latter makes a bit more sense IMHO. But bringing down a Chin'toka-style defensive net would necessarily take some time, as the known Borg weapons are just as short-ranged as the witnessed defense-sat ones, and the Borg would really have to roam the area to properly silence the defenses.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

That is, we saw the Borg at a standstill, making their usual threats at a similarly immobile Starfleet force that hadn't even armed weapons yet, and then the battle ensued. There was no sign that anybody but Locutus had done anything to stop the Borg progress towards Earth.

I'm not quite sure what your point is here. Unless I misunderstood you, you were implying that the Borg went to Wolf 359 specifically to pick a fight with Starfleet. That's not what happened. Wolf 359 was on the Borg's way to Earth, and the fleet was there because Hansen ordered them there, not because the Borg were seeking them out. I also stated that the Starfleet ships weren't just sitting around doing nothing and not even knowing about the Borg until they appeared, since they were specifically ordered to engage the Borg at Wolf 359. So there was every reason to believe that their weapons were already armed by the time they engaged the cube.

 

[Anwar]

I don't think those 3 ships were the entire Mars Defense force, they were all that was LEFT of the defense force the Borg was fighting off-screen.

Shelby mentioned planetary defenses.

I think there was some massive battle going on between the Cube entering the system and that scene at Mars, and those ships were like the very last things they had left to throw at them.

 

[Ithekro]

Thinking back to TMP when Kirk is planning of blowing up the Enterprise, Scott boasts about the mixing of that much matter and antimatter would certainly take out something as large as V'Ger. One assumes this was also Riker's final option mixed with the addition of kinetic energy from a impact at faster than light speeds. It can be guessed that no starship or defense system even came close to putting out that much energy as damage to the Borg cube, regardless of how many ships and weapons arrays Starfleet had at Wolf 359 and in the Sol System.

Though Earth's defenses seem to be swiss cheese even by the time the Breen attack years later.

 

[Timo]

Unless I misunderstood you, you were implying that the Borg went to Wolf 359 specifically to pick a fight with Starfleet. That's not what happened. Wolf 359 was on the Borg's way to Earth, and the fleet was there because Hansen ordered them there, not because the Borg were seeking them out

Several things about that story stink to high heaven.

For one, no star system would be on the route of the Borg - it's astronomically impossible. Every system but their very target would be off, a little or a lot.

But we don't have to assume that "at Wolf 359" really means "within the planetary system of the star" (assuming it has one in Trek). It's probably shorthand for "that part of the predicted Borg route that is pretty close to Wolf 359". Yet even that doesn't change the fact that no point would really be on the Borg route - the route is a thin line, imprecisely known, and space is vast. The fleet would need to roam space in order to get in the way of the Borg, and would only succeed if the Borg cooperated and didn't, say, change their route ever so slightly, or simply fly through the blockade.

To end up in a situation where the fleet is at standstill, the Borg are at standstill, and a threatening dialogue is the only thing underway, we absolutely have to assume the Borg chose to stop. It was their choice, not Starfleet's.

Why stop at Wolf 359? Because Starfleet was there, of course. But not because Starfleet would have forced the Borg to stop, because the stopping had clearly taken place before any forcing had even been attempted. Ergo, it was because the Borg wanted to engage Starfleet. In dialogue at first, but in combat soon thereafter (I don't know if they really believe in their own propaganda, but they probably could predict that Starfleet wouldn't comply with their demands.)

So there was every reason to believe that their weapons were already armed by the time they engaged the cube.

Every reason except what actually happened. "Emissary" shows the Saratoga starting from zero shortly after the Borg make their usual threats, specifically arming phasers and torpedoes at that point only.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Several things about that story stink to high heaven.

For one, no star system would be on the route of the Borg - it's astronomically impossible. Every system but their very target would be off, a little or a lot. -snip-

What? You're using "an astronomical impossibility" as your justification? That's absurd. The history of Star Trek is literally chock full of astronomical impossibilities. This is no different.

Starfleet detects that the Borg are on a course straight for Sector 001. There's absolutely no indication that the Borg are deviating in any way from that course. Presumably Starfleet chose Wolf 359 to engage them because it was in the path of that line, and that's why they sent the fleet there. There's no indication at all that Wolf 359 is some wholly other place not in the path of the Borg. Quite the opposite. That would be pointless, because the Borg are single-minded and have no logical reason to deviate from their course. You're welcome to believe otherwise, but it completely goes against the Borg's nature and what BoBW shows. Being "astronomically impossible" didn't stop the writers from their intent.

Every reason except what actually happened. "Emissary" shows the Saratoga starting from zero shortly after the Borg make their usual threats, specifically arming phasers and torpedoes at that point only.

All we see is Locutus making his speech, and then the Borg start to attach the Saratoga and the Melbourne. Then we see the Saratoga and the other ships start to fire on the Borg. So it looks like they were just waiting for the Borg to fire the first shot. That doesn't mean their weapons weren't ready. Of course they were ready: they were going into a potential battle!

 

[Marsden]

Well, planning of routes and stopovers aside, there seems to be consensus that it's not an effective scene.

I guess I can check Memory Alpha and see what they think.

Memory Alpha says they are "sentry pods"

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Mars_Defense_Perimeter

That's why I asked here, I trust the ramblings of a Trek BBS poster anyday of the week over Memory Alpha. Not that they are wrong, but it's like a non-answer answer to call them something that is never seen or refrenced anywhere ever again.

 

[Timo]

What? You're using "an astronomical impossibility" as your justification?

Nope. I'm just pointing out that there are a thousand things (assumptions, beliefs, assigning of motivations) in your interpretation of the events that are completely unnecessary in addition to being unrealistic, while what we actually see is simple enough.

The Borg nicely stop in front of Starfleet, even though they have no pressing need to do so. There's a rather one-sided negotiation. Then there's a big battle. That's what happens.

What doesn't happen is that the Borg head towards Earth but are prevented from doing so because Starfleet makes a stand at some point they call "Wolf 359". There's no "making a stand" in the events we witness in "Emissary", not until the Borg have already nicely stopped.

All we see is Locutus making his speech, and then the Borg start to attach the Saratoga and the Melbourne. Then we see the Saratoga and the other ships start to fire on the Borg. So it looks like they were just waiting for the Borg to fire the first shot. That doesn't mean their weapons weren't ready. Of course they were ready: they were going into a potential battle!

Again, lots of speculation that simply goes against the straightforward facts given. We hear the Saratoga has not yet armed her weapons when the Borg pontificate across the comm channel. It's explicit, not negotiable.

(To wit: the following are commanded by the CO after the battle is joined: "Red alert"; "Load all torpedo bays"; "Ready phasers". Sure, the Borg just moments ago commanded the fleet to "disarm weapons", but that's simply their standard greeting. It does not support the idea that the Borg stopped because too many starships were firing at their warp field and collapsing it.)

Why is this relevant at all? Because it is completely consistent with everything else the Borg under the command of Locutus do in "Best of Both Worlds". We witness completely unnecessary stops and close flybys in the route to Earth (Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, possibly plenty of others as well), necessarily establishing a non-beeline approach (even the lighting angles bear this out). Unnecessary, that is, if the Borg just wanted to get to Earth; if that were their only goal, they'd do as in ST:FC and simply go there, ignoring the armadas of starships firing at them.

But we never learn what the actual goal of the Borg was. Assimilation of Earth is actually extremely unlikely, as we later see in VOY how those things are done: with dozens of Cubes. But VOY also shows what individual Borg ships can achieve when harassing planets: they stimulate the development of defenses,a and then harvest that crop. Going carefully through the whole greenhouse with a pruning knife fits that function and goal.

there seems to be consensus that it's not an effective scene.

Hmh? I beg to differ: showing completely ineffective defenses is very effective in conveying the extent of distress!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

Assuming that the Battle of Wol 359 takes place in January of 2367, Saturn and Jupiter are on different sides of Sol. With Mars being on the Jupiter side of it. Depending on the course entering the Sol system, a Borg cube could pass Jupiter and Mars on the way to Earth, but not Saturn as it is on the opposite side of the system.

 

[Anwar]

As for blowing up the Enterprise to stop V'Ger in TMP...V'Ger took out 3 Klingon Starships that were each equal to the Enterprise. I can't see how it would've not detected the antimatter bomb and neutralized it just as easily.

 

[The Old Mixer]

The Enterprise did have the advantage of being in the belly of the beast.

 

[Maurice]

The TMP self-destruct was a late addition to the script and cut out in part because they decided it was unbelievable that they could defeat V'ger in any such way.

 

[Dukhat]

Assuming that the Battle of Wol 359 takes place in January of 2367, Saturn and Jupiter are on different sides of Sol. With Mars being on the Jupiter side of it. Depending on the course entering the Sol system, a Borg cube could pass Jupiter and Mars on the way to Earth, but not Saturn as it is on the opposite side of the system.

We witness completely unnecessary stops and close flybys in the route to Earth (Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, possibly plenty of others as well), necessarily establishing a non-beeline approach (even the lighting angles bear this out). Unnecessary, that is, if the Borg just wanted to get to Earth; if that were their only goal, they'd do as in ST:FC and simply go there, ignoring the armadas of starships firing at them.

The Borg weren't heading for Earth. They were heading for Sector 001, which presumably means both Earth and the entire surrounding solar system, at the least. Once they made a beeline approach to Sector 001, then they also presumably deviated from the beeline to go to each planet and knock out their defenses, Earth being their final destination in that sector. But only once they reached Sector 001. Before that, there's no indication at all that they stopped anywhere else on their direct course to Sector 001.