What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

[exodus]

I think there were interesting things they could've done with Kes's lifespan. She did meet the Ocampan colony whose people lived longer than the Caretaker's Ocampans, already setting up a situation where her lifespan could be expanded, and Kes seemed like a real prodigy, I think there's every chance she'd have found a way to extend her lifespan even longer.

She shouldn't have lived longer.
It's what made the character alien and why she had to be so smart.
She had to live life in one day, her wisdom came from the fact she saw thought bullshit cause she didn't have the luxury to get caught up in pettiness. It's why she dumped Neelix. His weak over protective nature was beneath her. She was rolling her eyes at him in "Twisted".

Kes lasting all 7s and dying in the final ep. would have been a better and emotionally stirring finale than what we got in "Endgame". Imagine if Kes' good-bye in "The Gift" was actually in shows conclusion instead? There wouldn't have been a dry eye in the house and the Voyagers conclusion would have been raved about!

 

[borgboy]

I can see the argument for Kes dying in the finale. If done well, I admit it probably would've been brilliant. I image thought they'd she'd transcend into a higher being at the last minute as she provided that last push Voyager needed to get to safety, so it would be a metaphorical death - very much like The Gift, as exodus suggests.
Yeah, that would've been brilliant.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She doesn't just die.

Kes dies on Ocampa.

And Janeway had to take her there.

So it's Janeway in a shuttle this time, over kes' dead body, trying to get back to the AQ.

Without repeating all her old mistakes, she should be able to do it in half the time.

Actually...

{Marooned on Ocampa}

Janeway "Goodbye Kes, I loved you like a mother."

{Two Years later. San Francisco}

Press douche "Captain Janeway How did you get all the way back to Earth in Just two years???!!"

Janeway "Now that I've really had some time to think about it, it was that Kim Kid slowing me down the first time."

 

[2takesfrakes]

ENOUGH with Sarah Silverman, enough ENOUGH! Or, so I said some years back and I'm still on that train and I'm not getting off in a hurry.

teacake, why would you serve Sarah Silverman thus ... ?
Share it! Share your pain & gain strength, from the sharing.

 

[Lynx]

I can see the argument for Kes dying in the finale. If done well, I admit it probably would've been brilliant. I image thought they'd she'd transcend into a higher being at the last minute as she provided that last push Voyager needed to get to safety, so it would be a metaphorical death - very much like The Gift, as exodus suggests.
Yeah, that would've been brilliant.

No!

I'm happy that we never had any melodramatic death scenes like that. Star Trek is about exploring and adventures, no syrupy soap opera. Those who like such melodramatic scenarios could watch any of the soap operas going on different channels.

Or experience it oneself by getting slowly bored to death by watching Stargate Universe!

Anyway, in the choice between two utterly bad scenarios, I do prefer her exit in "The Gift".

However, there were no reason at all to bring her back and humiliate her in "Fury".

As for her lifespan (the characters only flaw), it could have been prolonged. There were hints in some episodes, particularily in "Cold Fire" that such an option was possible.

And it did become possible-in the Kes story "Coming Home"!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

A. Kes is super space dolphin and as she dies she hurls Voyager almost-ish back to earth.

B. Sarah is fine, but she is not mine. Too self referential. I abstain.

 

[Lance]

Would I be 'Lien' if I told you the bottom line was Berman just decided he wanted Wang?

 

[Pauln6]

Kes has a ton of oddly untapped story potential. In that respect she was more interesting than Kim and her voice was just delicious. I do believe that 7 would have been male if Wang had left because Trek universally operates its (at least) 2 men for every woman policy. Dunno why but that's the way it's been since the sixties.

For my part I have no issue if Kes' story had come to an end with her natural life-span or her apotheosis. My problem was them doing it prior to Year of Hell. They should have kept Lien on alongside 7 for the first half of the season. They could both have been in the credits even if they did not appear in every episode. They could have used her properly in the episodes in wyich she appeared rather than in tepid cameos and Kes' apotheosis could have taken place as part of the resolution to the timey wimey plot, closing that loop.

Alternatively she could have just appeared in a special guest or also starring capacity in the first episodes and year of hell.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Would I be 'Lien' if I told you the bottom line was Berman just decided he wanted Wang?

Sir..........................................

Kes wasn't Roddenberry's decision, or one forced on them by the fans ... Berman and company wanted her onboard! What happened with her character after, the awkward scenes - particularly painful, were the ones with Neelix - the half-started ideas ... like they kept throwing shit at the wall to see what would stick with her. It makes you wonder what they were thinking in the beginning, when they came up with her, in the first place?

Just ... follow your original intentions? What went wrong? What happened? I just don't get it. Jennifer Lien just got jerked around, it seems like, as did fans of hers. Garrett Wang got the same deal, really, I know ... maybe in some ways, he got it worse than she did. But ... I don't care about Wang! Forgive me, Jesus ... I know that's not a very Christian thing to say, but ...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Garret did get it worse. He got it 4 years worse.

 

[Lance]

Jennifer Lien got early release. Garrett Wang had to do a life stretch.

 

[borgboy]

I agree that Kes's exit in The Gift was pretty good. I wasn't ready for her to go, and I was intrigued by the potential for a new friendship with Seven, but still, Kes left on a high note. I'd have ben much happier if they'd left her at that point. The Fury just made me mad. Clearly.

 

[AgentCoop]

You're all just intimidated by that much Wang.

 

[borgboy]

You're all just intimidated by that much Wang.

Oh, I can handle the Wang.

 

[exodus]

Would I be 'Lien' if I told you the bottom line was Berman just decided he wanted Wang?

Sir..........................................

Kes wasn't Roddenberry's decision, or one forced on them by the fans ... Berman and company wanted her onboard! What happened with her character after, the awkward scenes - particularly painful, were the ones with Neelix - the half-started ideas ... like they kept throwing shit at the wall to see what would stick with her. It makes you wonder what they were thinking in the beginning, when they came up with her, in the first place?

Just ... follow your original intentions? What went wrong? What happened? I just don't get it. Jennifer Lien just got jerked around, it seems like, as did fans of hers. Garrett Wang got the same deal, really, I know ... maybe in some ways, he got it worse than she did. But ... I don't care about Wang! Forgive me, Jesus ... I know that's not a very Christian thing to say, but ...

1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.

2) As far as Kes, I think they had ideas about her in "Caretaker" but I think they felt she be a character that kinda wrote itself. I think they were expecting inspiration about her to come as show played out but it didn't.

 

[borgboy]

Would I be 'Lien' if I told you the bottom line was Berman just decided he wanted Wang?

Sir..........................................

Kes wasn't Roddenberry's decision, or one forced on them by the fans ... Berman and company wanted her onboard! What happened with her character after, the awkward scenes - particularly painful, were the ones with Neelix - the half-started ideas ... like they kept throwing shit at the wall to see what would stick with her. It makes you wonder what they were thinking in the beginning, when they came up with her, in the first place?

Just ... follow your original intentions? What went wrong? What happened? I just don't get it. Jennifer Lien just got jerked around, it seems like, as did fans of hers. Garrett Wang got the same deal, really, I know ... maybe in some ways, he got it worse than she did. But ... I don't care about Wang! Forgive me, Jesus ... I know that's not a very Christian thing to say, but ...

1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.

2) As far as Kes, I think they had ideas about her in "Caretaker" but I think they felt she be a character that kinda wrote itself. I think they were expecting inspiration about her to come as show played out but it didn't.

That's on the writers, as I think Kes was an interesting character with lots of story potential. Our Lynx wrote a Kes centered unpublished Voyager novel. I don't think a good writer would have that hard a time coming up with the occasional Kes centered story. Then again, they kept Harry and he rarely got any memorable stories focusing on him.

 

[Lance]

1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.

2takesfrakes is right, though. Berman didn't want Wang. But it soon became obvious the studio was going to force him to have Wang, after Wang was voted the best looking Wang in a magazine. So, he ended up sacking Lien, and having Wang instead.

 

[exodus]

Sir..........................................

Kes wasn't Roddenberry's decision, or one forced on them by the fans ... Berman and company wanted her onboard! What happened with her character after, the awkward scenes - particularly painful, were the ones with Neelix - the half-started ideas ... like they kept throwing shit at the wall to see what would stick with her. It makes you wonder what they were thinking in the beginning, when they came up with her, in the first place?

Just ... follow your original intentions? What went wrong? What happened? I just don't get it. Jennifer Lien just got jerked around, it seems like, as did fans of hers. Garrett Wang got the same deal, really, I know ... maybe in some ways, he got it worse than she did. But ... I don't care about Wang! Forgive me, Jesus ... I know that's not a very Christian thing to say, but ...

1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.

2) As far as Kes, I think they had ideas about her in "Caretaker" but I think they felt she be a character that kinda wrote itself. I think they were expecting inspiration about her to come as show played out but it didn't.

That's on the writers, as I think Kes was an interesting character with lots of story potential. Our Lynx wrote a Kes centered unpublished Voyager novel. I don't think a good writer would have that hard a time coming up with the occasional Kes centered story. Then again, they kept Harry and he rarely got any memorable stories focusing on him.

Lynx is writing stories in retrospect.
It's easy to write a good story if you're rewriting what's been done.
Lynx is not part of a soapbox of 5 writers in a room each with 5 stories/ideas each week that may or may not be better than the 3 ideas/stories about Kes.
Having ideas for one or two Kes based stories doesn't compare with having to have 3 new ones to present for consideration every week, for 4 months.

Say what you want but those writers were good enough to beat out hundreds of other writers and their get their stories made into TV episodes.

You Kes fans wanna point fingers and accuse TPTB to purposely doing things against you(Fury) but you don't even have a clue how their job works.

 

[exodus]

1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.

2takesfrakes is right, though. Berman didn't want Wang. But it soon became obvious the studio was going to force him to have Wang, after Wang was voted the best looking Wang in a magazine. So, he ended up sacking Lien, and having Wang instead.

Wang is a powerful thing

 

[borgboy]

1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.

2) As far as Kes, I think they had ideas about her in "Caretaker" but I think they felt she be a character that kinda wrote itself. I think they were expecting inspiration about her to come as show played out but it didn't.

That's on the writers, as I think Kes was an interesting character with lots of story potential. Our Lynx wrote a Kes centered unpublished Voyager novel. I don't think a good writer would have that hard a time coming up with the occasional Kes centered story. Then again, they kept Harry and he rarely got any memorable stories focusing on him.

Lynx is writing stories in retrospect.
It's easy to write a good story if you're rewriting what's been done.
Lynx is not part of a soapbox of 5 writers in a room each with 5 stories/ideas each week that may or may not be better than the 3 ideas/stories about Kes.
Having ideas for one or two Kes based stories doesn't compare with having to have 3 new ones to present for consideration every week, for 4 months.

Say what you want but those writers were good enough to beat out hundreds of other writers and their get their stories made into TV episodes.

You Kes fans wanna point fingers and accuse TPTB to purposely doing things against you(Fury) but you don't even have a clue how their job works.

I don't have to understand every aspect of a televison writer's job to know that I think it's ridiculous to expect us to believe they couldn't write good stories for her, but could do so for Neelix, Kim, etc.
I think Lynx wrote her novel during the run of Voyager, but I don't see where that's pertinent. Most episodes were stand alone, and I expect that her story would be telling a new story, not something in "retrospect".