What If ..... Aliens landed and took over the earth

[Paulcpick]

Ahh, but the Klan, or New Black Panthers are Not Under the control of the leader of the Government, and about 50 other reasons that you are comparing apples to oranges.

ALL of the members of the Waffen SS who survived WWII who were not conscripted were punitively punished by being denied any form of pension due to the fact that the Waffen SS was ruled to be a Criminal Organization at The Nuremberg Trials.

to quote the Wikipedia article about the Waffen SS,

"In the 1950s and 1960s, Waffen-SS veteran groups successfully fought numerous legal battles in West Germany to overturn the Nuremberg ruling and win pension rights for their members"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS

Waffen SS members who were denied pensions rights, later successfully applied to get their pensions, including those who served as volunteers provided they did not commit any war crimes.
]

While I understand the fact that many former Wafen SS members were awarded pension rights by the West German Government, made up of Germans, that is a different matter than the original Judgement, made up by members of, and people sympathetic to, the aggrieved groups(IE, The people that The Waffen SS committed aggressive war against under the direct control and ideology of The NAZI party.)
The Nuremberg judgement is the International judgement of the Wafen SS, the West German judgements are the German Judgements of the Wafen SS.

That's nonsense, the post WWII pension system was for everybody, Virtually all of the nazi elites except for the top dogs served in the new democratic government. Gee, a former nazi was head of state over here during the sixties.

MY POINT

Your 'proving my previous post' phrase implied that you consider me to be a nazi.

erroneous, i Implied No Such Thing.....

I never said that the Wehrmacht was an Army of Kittens and Daisies, or for that matter the Allied Armies either, its war, and War is a Nasty buisiness, however the non revised, Historically Correct view of the Waffen SS was the that the Waffen SS was the MILITARY MANIFESTATION of NAZISM....

 

[horatio83]

Not really.
The crimes of the Wehrmacht have not been ordinary "war is a nasty business" kind of crimes, the Wehrmacht have been engaged in a war of extermination. Just because their crimes have not been dealt with juristically as much as the crimes of the SS doesn't mean that they have not existed. The Wehrmacht has been as much a part of the Third Reich as the SS and right-wing, nationalistic, anti-democratic military types are precisely the ones who helped the nazis to get to power. There is a straight path from Wilhelm over Ludendorff and Hindenburg to Hitler.

Once again, the view that there was a neutral army that has been controlled by the nazis and their wicked SS is wrong. They have all been part of the same system and that's precisely why denying pensions to SS but not to army officers would have made no sense. Whether you kill Jews in a concentration camp or shoot civilians in a village you just conquered makes little difference, both are atrocities.

 

[Paulcpick]

But what you call nonsense is a historical fact, you can not like it all you want, but the International Law opinion of the Wafen SS is that it was an illegitimate, criminal organization, while the Wehrmacht was a legitimate one that committed illegal acts.
To use use a regional allegory, its like comparing MS13 to Enron. Both of them committed crimes, but one of them was a legitimate organization, the other isn't.

 

[Paulcpick]

Also, just a small quibble here, but had you been having a conversation with an SS person, and compared a member of the Waffen-SS to a soldier of the Wehrmacht in the manner you did in pre 1945 Germany, you would have deeply insulted, and probably would have responded to it violently.
The Wafen SS was indoctrinated to believe that they were super men and that they were Superior to Everyone except their NAZI leaders, including The Wehrmacht.

 

[horatio83]

While I agree that the SS was definitely the worse organization and also closer connected to the nazi leadership as well as their ideology your idea of a clean Wehrmacht is a myth. You do not need to know much about Weimar to see the origins of fascism in the old, antidemocratic, militaristic Kaiserreich elites who opposed democracy from the very beginning.

Sorry but reality is more muddy than your picture of wicked nazis vs. noble Wehrmacht soldiers. Just look at all the atrocities in the East. And, pardon to be so blunt, your defense of the Wehrmacht makes me wanna wonder about your political ideology. Right-wingers are usually the ones who spread myths about the clean military.

 

[Paulcpick]

What are you on about now? Where did I say that no, or minimal atrocities were committed by The Wehrmacht? What I said was, as per International Military tribunal findings, the Wehrmacht was viewed as a Legitimate Military Force, that committed atrocities, Whereas the Waffen SS was decreed an Ilegitamate, Illegal orginization that was trained and indoctrinated from the gitgo to be the Military Manifestation Of Nazism.

 

[horatio83]

Sure, that might have been the juristic view of the Nuremberg trials but it is pretty limited. Especially in the last decade there have been some historical publications that corrected this skewed view of the "clean Wehrmacht".
You cannot write about fascism and ignore its right-wing, military, jingoist roots (I always care more about the source of a problem than its symptoms) or even pretend that there has been anything legitimate about the army of the nazis aka Wehrmacht. Gee, when Germany rearmed it broke the Treaty of Versailles.

PS: This is a short review of one of these publications I mentioned. Alternatively you can just google "clean Wehrmacht" and take a look at abstracts of historical papers or book reviews to get a quick overview on the subject.

 

[Paulcpick]

Right, wrong, or indifferent, it was doing that long before The Little Private came along.....

And you say Right Wing roots, but how many of Germany's supposed "foreward thinkers" Joined Nazism fairly early in Hitlers rise to power. It wasnt a Right Wing, or a Left Wing anything, it was a people who felt like the World screwed them over and they were going to do something about it...
And what they did was Rally behind an egomaniac that was borderline psychotic.

 

[horatio83]

"Fascism isn't a form of right-wing extremism and Breivik or Hitler weren't sane political beings but madmen." Typical right-wing propaganda. Not that it wasn't already clear what your political orientation is when you defended the Wehrmacht.

On a sidenote, the left-wing equivalent of what you just said is something like 'Stalin wasn't a communist but somebody who subverted communism from the inside'. Bullshit, if fascism isn't right-wing and Stalinism isn't left-wing these words have no meaning.

 

[Paulcpick]

I reiterate:

What I said was, as per International Military tribunal findings, the Wehrmacht was viewed as a Legitimate Military Force, that committed atrocities, Whereas the Waffen SS was decreed an Ilegitamate, Illegal orginization that was trained and indoctrinated from the gitgo to be the Military Manifestation Of Nazism.

That doesnt Mean that they didnt do evil things, or that they werent used for Evil Purposes, what it means is that Not Everything The Wehrmacht did was outside the bounds of the law, Unlike a Criminal Organization(namely the SS) which by its own very SOP operated wholly Beyond the bounds of the law.

Dont Go Fishing today, you wont catch anything. Just because Im not condemning the Wehrmacht here, doesnt mean they dont desrve condemnation for their actions, but they really werent the topic being discussed here, so its not really necessary to bring them up, unless of course you are trying to equalize the Wafen-SS and the Wehrmacht.

I am actually staunchly opposed to all forms of Government that has the terms "Ism" in it(Fascism, Socialism,Communism, Despotism,ect)
I dont even like the modern democracy, I am a hardcore support of Constitutional Republics.

Germany in World War 2 was what I would call a Societal Madness, Hitler WAS Germany from 33-45, and there is no doubt that as early as 41 Hitler was slowly slipping into madness, and its also clear by mid/late 1944, that he had gone totally batshit, and most of the German people were quite content to follow him right over the abyss.

 

[horatio83]

No matter how hard you try, nobody swallows your propaganda. You cannot depoliticize something essentially political.

 

[Deckerd]

Get a room.

 

[Starkers]

We'll never defeat our alien overlords if we can't agree amongst ourselves

 

[Paulcpick]

I've more than proved my position, and I have nothing to add to it, especially since you obviously keep changing yours, so, I'm done, only have one thing to add:

No matter how hard you try, nobody swallows your propaganda.

 

[horatio83]

About your attempt to depoliticize fascism. As I already pointed out this is something right-wingers do for obvious reasons.

 

[Gov Kodos]

About your attempt to depoliticize fascism. As I already pointed out this is something right-wingers do for obvious reasons.

I looked back and have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[horatio83]

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=6358330&postcount=148

Not that the smear against progressives, many of whom died in concentration camps, in this post isn't already totally disgusting; I cannot emphasize enough that depoliticizing something totally political like fascism is either right-wing propaganda (clearly visible when right-wingers were happy when it seemed as if Breivik was a crazy madman instead of a cool-minded political executioners of a bunch of young Norwegian social democrats) or a way to endure the fact that not lunatics but ordinary, everyday or to use Arendt's word banal people have done evil things.

 

[Gov Kodos]

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=6358330&postcount=148

And your vague assertion is meaningless. Now you run back to claim there was a smear against progressives in Paulcpick's posts? Whatever you're on is baseless and histrionic as usual.

 

[horatio83]

This post depoliticizes fascism and accusing progressive ("foreward thinkers" Joined Nazism) folks of having been nazis. No need for me to be anything but blunt and frank when dealing with such Glenn Beck style propaganda.

 

[Paulcpick]

First they came for the Communists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

I have no further comment.