What If ..... Aliens landed and took over the earth

[Gov Kodos]

Emoborg's nonsense looks like a Nazi apologist argument.

i like to study right wing groups. i am not a nazi but i do read their literature to try to understand their mindset. FYI i am a social liberal, i am a straight guy who strongly support gay marriage and gay adoption rights. i also respect the jewish religion because it has no concept of hell, the same concept which Christianity and Islam uses to frighten non believers into converting to their belief system.

Make what claims you wish, your argument speaks for itself. SS members were members of the Nazi party, it went with the territory. The attempt to claim they weren't all really Nazis by bringing up the more lax racial restrictions used when the war was turning grim is often used by revisionists to demonstrate that the SS weren't really the bad Nazis history makes them out to be.

 

[EmoBorg]

Emoborg's nonsense looks like a Nazi apologist argument.

i like to study right wing groups. i am not a nazi but i do read their literature to try to understand their mindset. FYI i am a social liberal, i am a straight guy who strongly support gay marriage and gay adoption rights. i also respect the jewish religion because it has no concept of hell, the same concept which Christianity and Islam uses to frighten non believers into converting to their belief system.

Make what claims you wish, your argument speaks for itself. SS members were members of the Nazi party, it went with the territory. The attempt to claim they weren't all really Nazis by bringing up the more lax racial restrictions used when the war was turning grim is often used by revisionists to demonstrate that the SS weren't really the bad Nazis history makes them out to be.

you are painting everyone who served on the german side as a bona fide nazi. That is wrong. The Pope was in the Hitler Youth and served in the final days of the war. Does that make him a nazi? No it does not. Not all who served on the german side in the SS were dyed in the wool nazis type.

 

[iguana_tonante]

you are painting everyone who served on the german side as a bona fide nazi. That is wrong.

No, we are not is saying that. We are saying that people who joined the Nazi party's SS were Nazi. It's you who is muddying the issue. It's apparent, and it's shameful.

From wiki: The Schutzstaffel (...) was a major paramilitary organization under Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. Built upon the Nazi ideology...

Also from wiki: The Germanic SS (...) was the collective name given to SS groups which arose in Occupied Europe between 1939 and 1945. (...) The purpose of the Germanic SS was to enforce Nazi racial doctrine and Anti-Semitic ideals.

So tell us again about being a part of the SS in occupied Europe and not being a Nazi and do not espousing Nazi ideology.

one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The enemy of many indians, arabs, russians, bosnians, croats, ukrainians and baltic people were not the nazis nor the japanese but members of the WW2 allies.

What does this have to do with who was a Nazi and who was not?

 

[thestrangequark]

Shaytan is french & iguana_tonante is italian. I understand that both of you are emotionally connected to this issue as your countries did suffer alot during WW2 but i will stand by what i say. If you want to be emotional about it, then it is your problem, not mine.

And I am American of Native American and Norwegian descent, with absolutely no direct or indirect relationship to anyone who was in any way affected by the Nazis, and yet I have an emotional reaction as well. If you don't have an emotional reaction to the ideology and actions of the Nazis then I think it's safe to say that you are in the minority.

How about those indians who joined the Indische Legion on the german side and fought in the Waffen SS. Could they be called nazis? Is it racially possible?

I love this statement. It seems to imply that you think one must be an aryan in ideal condition who in every way encapsulates Nazi ideology to be considered a Nazi...because Hitler himself was totally the blonde-haired and blue-eyed image of perfect health...

To quote Professor Dumbledore: "It is our actions, not our abilities, that make us who we are."
In other words, if you do the work of a Nazi, you are a Nazi. Even if you're only doing it for the paycheck and the digs.




(BTW, I LOVE that spell-check recognizes Dumbledore!)

 

[Shaytan]

Shaytan is french & iguana_tonante is italian. I understand that both of you are emotionally connected to this issue as your countries did suffer alot during WW2 but i will stand by what i say. If you want to be emotional about it, then it is your problem, not mine.

No, I'm not emotional, I was born 40 years after WWII, I'm not personally involved.
After all this time we can analyze the events, you know.

 

[EmoBorg]

you are painting everyone who served on the german side as a bona fide nazi. That is wrong.

No, we are not is saying that. We are saying that people who joined the Nazi party's SS were Nazi. It's you who is muddying the issue. It's apparent, and it's shameful.

From wiki: The Schutzstaffel (...) was a major paramilitary organization under Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. Built upon the Nazi ideology...

Also from wiki: The Germanic SS (...) was the collective name given to SS groups which arose in Occupied Europe between 1939 and 1945. (...) The purpose of the Germanic SS was to enforce Nazi racial doctrine and Anti-Semitic ideals.

So tell us again about being a part of the SS in occupied Europe and not being a Nazi and do not espousing Nazi ideology.

one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The enemy of many indians, arabs, russians, bosnians, croats, ukrainians and baltic people were not the nazis nor the japanese but members of the WW2 allies.

What does this have to do with who was a Nazi and who was not?

You are saying those who joined the SS, are Nazis. the Waffen SS was part of the SS and indians and bosnians were in the Waffen SS. Does that make them Nazis. No it does not.

 

[Paulcpick]

Yes, I am saying exactly that.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-03/tgmwc-03-23-07.html

i like to study right wing groups. i am not a nazi but i do read their literature to try to understand their mindset.

And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

I too have studied WWII, the rise of Hitler and the Hitlerites, and the reasons their ideology was so pervasive, but you seem to have developed an open minded sympathy for them. Please, re-evaluate your stance on that. The only people that deserve a sympathetic ear are the Wehrmacht conscripts, Anyone who - of his own volition - joined the NAZI party and any of their satellite groups(including any and all arms of the SS) are responsible for the crimes committed in their name.

 

[EmoBorg]

Yes, I am saying exactly that.

i like to study right wing groups. i am not a nazi but i do read their literature to try to understand their mindset.

And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

I too have studied WWII, the rise of Hitler and the Hitlerites, and the reasons their ideology was so pervasive, but you seem to have developed an open minded sympathy for them. Please, re-evaluate your stance on that. The only people that deserve a sympathetic ear are the Wehrmacht conscripts, Anyone who - of his own volition - joined the NAZI party and any of their satellite groups(including any and all arms of the SS) are responsible for the crimes committed in their name.

if a guy was a member of the KKK and the two other guys from another chapter of the KKK lynches an african american, can the first guy be held responsible for the murder just because he was KKK even though he was not involved at all. Can a black panther member be guilty of a shooting if another black panther was the shooter. All Members of the Waffen SS are not gulity. if you committed a crime and you are found guilty, you can say that but the Waffen SS had over million members and most did not go to prison as most were not guilty.

 

[Paulcpick]

Ahh, but the Klan, or New Black Panthers are Not Under the control of the leader of the Government, and about 50 other reasons that you are comparing apples to oranges.

ALL of the members of the Waffen SS who survived WWII who were not conscripted were punitively punished by being denied any form of pension due to the fact that the Waffen SS was ruled to be a Criminal Organization at The Nuremberg Trials.

 

[Shaytan]

You are saying those who joined the SS, are Nazis. the Waffen SS was part of the SS and indians and bosnians were in the Waffen SS. Does that make them Nazis. No it does not.

If you serve the ideologies of the nazis, you're very nazi friendly.

You make the mistake to separate the SS from the ideology. IT IS a mistake in your analysis.

 

[iguana_tonante]

You are saying those who joined the SS, are Nazis. the Waffen SS was part of the SS and indians and bosnians were in the Waffen SS. Does that make them Nazis. No it does not.

Of course it does. Again, the SS were part of the Nazi Party. They were Nazi by definition.

I'll point you again to the relevant part:

The Schutzstaffel (...) was a major paramilitary organization under Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. Built upon the Nazi ideology...

The Germanic SS (...) was the collective name given to SS groups which arose in Occupied Europe between 1939 and 1945. (...) The purpose of the Germanic SS was to enforce Nazi racial doctrine and Anti-Semitic ideals.

You keep harping about non-Germans joining the SS and how they were "not really Nazi". So I'll ask you straight up: in your opinion, can non-Germans be Nazi?

 

[EmoBorg]

Ahh, but the Klan, or New Black Panthers are Not Under the control of the leader of the Government, and about 50 other reasons that you are comparing apples to oranges.

ALL of the members of the Waffen SS who survived WWII who were not conscripted were punitively punished by being denied any form of pension due to the fact that the Waffen SS was ruled to be a Criminal Organization at The Nuremberg Trials.

to quote the Wikipedia article about the Waffen SS,

"In the 1950s and 1960s, Waffen-SS veteran groups successfully fought numerous legal battles in West Germany to overturn the Nuremberg ruling and win pension rights for their members"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS

Waffen SS members who were denied pensions rights, later successfully applied to get their pensions, including those who served as volunteers provided they did not commit any war crimes.

Many folks became nazis because it was politically necessary to do so in nazi germany. It was just like soviet citizens who joined the soviet communist party but were not communist at heart. The late Russian president, Boris Yeltsin was a communist party member but he was not a dedicated communist. Yeltsin ended Communism in the former soviet union.

The Nobel prize-winning novelist Guenter Grass was a member of the Waffen SS duing the war but in his personal life he was a left winger. Could you call him a nazi and have him punished?

If you are a member of the Waffen SS and you commit a war crime, you deserve to be punished. But if you did not commit a war crime, you are not a war criminal. I WILL not condemn anyone as guilty under the guise of guilty by association.

Go and watch the video below before accusing me of being sympathetic to the nazis just becuase of my comments about the Waffen SS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keZlextkcDI

 

[Deckerd]

Quoting wiki isn't going to endear yourself to people who live in the countries where this is their national history. "I WILL not condemn anyone as guilty..."

Who are you? A member of the ECHR?

 

[Roger Wilco]

I totally don't understand EmoBorg's point. Was every Waffen-SS soldier a Nazi? Probably not, especially not those who were drafted later in the war. Was every Nazi a murderer? Not directly, and not in a legal sense. Did someone who joined the NSDAP in 1924 have different reasons to do so than someone who joined in 1940? Yeah, probably, although I think the difference between a true believer and a mere opportunist is hair-splitting morally. Was the Waffen-SS multicultural? Bullshit, the Handzar, the Vlasov-army, the Indian Legion, etc, that was all a sideshow with negligible military value. It's purpose was propaganda then and is still. Was the Waffen-SS rightly judged a criminal organisation as a whole in Nuremberg? Of course, no doubt whatsoever.

 

[Paulcpick]

Ahh, but the Klan, or New Black Panthers are Not Under the control of the leader of the Government, and about 50 other reasons that you are comparing apples to oranges.

ALL of the members of the Waffen SS who survived WWII who were not conscripted were punitively punished by being denied any form of pension due to the fact that the Waffen SS was ruled to be a Criminal Organization at The Nuremberg Trials.

to quote the Wikipedia article about the Waffen SS,

"In the 1950s and 1960s, Waffen-SS veteran groups successfully fought numerous legal battles in West Germany to overturn the Nuremberg ruling and win pension rights for their members"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS

Waffen SS members who were denied pensions rights, later successfully applied to get their pensions, including those who served as volunteers provided they did not commit any war crimes.
]

While I understand the fact that many former Wafen SS members were awarded pension rights by the West German Government, made up of Germans, that is a different matter than the original Judgement, made up by members of, and people sympathetic to, the aggrieved groups(IE, The people that The Waffen SS committed aggressive war against under the direct control and ideology of The NAZI party.)
The Nuremberg judgement is the International judgement of the Wafen SS, the West German judgements are the German Judgements of the Wafen SS.
Ask the Slaves if they thought the people who fought for the south in the civil war should have been punished....

There were many Non party member Germans holding high office in both the civilian and military branches of NAZI Germany government. Your theory that one must have to be a nazi to succeed in pre 45 Germany doesn't hold the amount of water you need it to to sustain your argument.

If you want the modern view of the Wafen SS, the sure, by all means, use Wikipedia, but if you want the first hand "boots on the ground" view of the Wafen SS, the Nuremberg and other War Crimes tribunal transcripts are the go to documents. They are unsullied by 67 years worth of revisionism.

 

[horatio83]

ALL of the members of the Waffen SS who survived WWII who were not conscripted were punitively punished by being denied any form of pension due to the fact that the Waffen SS was ruled to be a Criminal Organization at The Nuremberg Trials.

That's nonsense, the post WWII pension system was for everybody, including the hundreds of thousands if not millions who were part of the SS. Virtually all of the nazi elites except for the top dogs served in the new democratic government. Gee, a former nazi was head of state over here during the sixties.
Take a look a Iraq and what the US did to the Ba'ath party and you will understand that as horrible as it is, using the old criminal elites to rebuild a country is still the best option.

 

[Paulcpick]

ALL of the members of the Waffen SS who survived WWII who were not conscripted were punitively punished by being denied any form of pension due to the fact that the Waffen SS was ruled to be a Criminal Organization at The Nuremberg Trials.

That's nonsense, the post WWII pension system was for everybody, including the hundreds of thousands if not millions who were part of the SS. Virtually all of the nazi elites except for the top dogs served in the new democratic government. Gee, a former nazi was head of state over here during the sixties.

Whether you think its nonsense or not makes no difference, It Is a FACT, go, look it up, hell, I'll post the link for the SECOND time that covers it in the records of The Nuremberg trials

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-03/tgmwc-03-23-07.html

Taken from PART SIX in that link:
"The evidence has shown that though the S.S. was an organisation of volunteers, applicants had to meet the strictest standards of selection. It was not easy to become an S.S. member. That was true of all branches of the S.S. We clearly recognise, of course, that during the course of the war, as the demands for man-power increased and the losses of the "Waffen S.S." grew heavier and heavier, there were occasions when men drafted for compulsory military service were assigned to units of the "Waffen S.S." rather than to the "Wehrmacht." Those instances were relatively few. Evidence of recruiting standards of the "Waffen S.S." in 1943, which I quoted yesterday, has shown that membership in that branch was as essentially voluntary and highly selective as in other branches. Doubtless some of the members of the S.S., or of other of the organisations alleged to be unlawful, might desire to show that their participation in the organisation was a small or innocuous one, that compelling reasons drove them to apply for membership, that they were not fully conscious of its aims or that they were mentally irresponsible when they became members. Such facts might or might not be relevant if such persons were on trial. But, in any event, this is not the forum to try out such matters.
The question before this Tribunal is simply this, whether the S.S. was or was not an unlawful organisation. The evidence has finally shown what the aims and activities of the S.S. were. Some of those aims were stated in publications which I have quoted to the Court. The activities were so widespread and so notorious, covering so many fields of unlawful endeavour, that the illegality of the organisation could not have been concealed. It was a notorious fact, and Himmler, himself, in 1936, in a quotation which I read to the Tribunal yesterday, admitted that, when he said, "I know that there are people in Germany now who become sick when they see these black coats.
We know the reason and we do not expect to be loved by too many."
It was, we submit, at all times the exclusive function and purpose of the S.S. to carry out the common objectives of the defendant conspirators. Its activities in carrying out those objectives involved the commission of the crimes defined in Article 6 of the Charter. By reason of its aims and the means used for the accomplishment thereof, the S.S. should be declared a criminal organisation in accordance with Article 9 of the Charter."


http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-03/tgmwc-03-24-06.html



AND you have done me the favor of proving my previous post too, thank you.

 

[horatio83]

Of course the SS is criminal. Read what I wrote, I referred to your denial of pension part. And please think twice before you call a social democrat (that's something like an uber-communist for a Texan) a nazi.

 

[Paulcpick]

Of course the SS is criminal. Read what I wrote, I referred to your denial of pension part. And please think twice before you call a social democrat (that's something like an uber-communist for a Texan) a nazi.

Don't put words in my mouth mister, I haven't called anyone who wasn't apart of the NAZI system a NAZI.


Also, again, it is a HISTORICAL FACT that the Nuremberg Trials denied Pension Right to anyone who voluntarily served in the SS. The GERMAN court system later restored those for many, but as you say.....

Virtually all of the nazi elites except for the top dogs served in the new democratic government. Gee, a former nazi was head of state over here during the sixties.

 

[horatio83]

Your 'proving my previous post' phrase implied that you consider me to be a nazi.

Not everybody of the hundreds of thousands of people who served in the SS committed crimes. A fairly left-leaning writer over here who won the Nobel prize served in it. I doubt that he did any nasty things.
It is not like the SS was responsible for the dirty things whereas the Wehrmacht was a nice army and that's why I am glad that every member of the SS who has not been found guilty of any crimes was eligible for a pension.
After all the nazis partly came to power because of the austerity nonsense of Brüning which lead to high unemployment. Fascism was like communism a response to unfettered capitalism. After WWII people everywhere in the West learned from Roosevelt and made a few steps towards social democracy, towards moderating capitalism such that the horrors of the first part of the century will not reappear in the second part. Part of this moderation in Germany has been the creating of a pay-as-you-go pension system from which millions of people who never paid a cent and were responsible for WWII and the Shoah profited.

I am all for being harsh on fascism and everything that is even remotely related to it, be it xenophobia or corporate power. But harsh doesn't imply that you punish people, no matter what they have done, via not guaranteeing their economic security or letting them even starve.