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What I think is wrong with XI compared to the others.

Bones2

Commodore
Commodore
In short, there's no message there. No deeper meaning. No comment on the human condition or anything. It's just a load of flashy things that encourage you not to think. Whereas, all the others had...

TMP - Yeah, actually, there's not much of a message here. But it's my least favourite of all the films anyway. Maybe there's some stuff in Kirk's wanting the Enterprise back, but not much more.
TWOK - Getting older is the main theme here I would say. Perhaps there's more in the revenge plot, and Spock's sacrifice. Kirk's confronted by a son he'd never known as well, and there also seems to be a focus on regret.
TSFS - Friendship's the main theme here, and perhaps the only one. They all give up their careers and put themselves in danger for Spock. It's not perhaps the best of the meanings in the films, but it is there.
TVH - I've never held this one in as high esteem as other people do, and maybe this is why. Perhaps save the whales is the only message? Better than nothing. And there's Spock to Sarek at the end, about telling his mother he feels fine. There's something in that I suppose.
TFF - Rather the opposite than with TVH, in that I like this a lot more than most people. There's a lot here. There's the close friendship of the lead three more evident here than anywhere, and most importantly is the idea that every hides a secret pain. But taking it away isn't the answer. Yeah, well I get a lot out of it anyway.
TUC - Dealing with prejudice and not being blinded by it seems to be the main one here. Which is as worthy as anything.
GEN - Is it better to live in a false paradise than the real world? Perhaps a meaningless question really, but it works for me. Equally, perhaps some see Picard's conversation with Riker at the end as meaningless pseudo-philosophical fluff, but I get something out of it. Soran's willing to do anything to get back to the Nexus, his paradise, whatever the cost.
FC - The main one here is Picard's need for vengeance against the Borg. Also a look at hero worship, with Cochrane. Good stuff I think.
INS - Another of my least favourites. The commentary that's suppose to be there about the forced relocation of people doesn't work due to how flawed the plot is, but there's that bit about experiencing a moment in time, however tacked on it feels.
NEM - There's the themes of duality between Picard and Shinzon (and perhaps between Data and B4 to a much lesser extent). Picard realising that Shinzon is him, had he lived his life and that perhaps we're only the sum of our experiences. Shinzon's insistence that he can't fight what he is. As with TFF, very much hated by fans, but I find much to enjoy.

And what does XI have? No, really, what? The Kelvin sequence is moving, but there's not much message behind it. As for the rest, it's a thin plot with more holes and contrivances than the other films put together, and no meaning. Take out the effects, and what is there?

A friend told me that XI had made Star Trek cool, but if being cool costs Star Trek its soul and makes it into just another dumb action flick, then I'd rather it was viewed as something that only middle aged men living in their mother's basements and speak Klingon like.
 
Take out the effects, and what is there?

Well there is the cheap 9-11 parellel with the destruction of Vulcan. Still, no real meaning behind it, but JJ seems to like doing cheap analogies of 9-11 (Cloverfield anyone?).

But seriously, I hated that movie too.
 
Actually there have been other Trek films and episodes without deep meanings.

That said, I think that the new Trek film is like Trek itself. It's about the characters. The importance is how they work together. I think the film works by having Kirk and Spock in conflict. I think what works is having Spock, early in the film, lecture about how controlling fear and emotion is required in every captain, but then he is unable to control them himself when his planet is destroyed. Trek works when a character is so challenged.
 
TMP - Yeah, actually, there's not much of a message here. But it's my least favourite of all the films anyway. Maybe there's some stuff in Kirk's wanting the Enterprise back, but not much more.

And showing space is not a really safe place, and that some being can make the whole Federation look like nothing. Plus it was one of those stories that was more of going into the unknown than the typical villian of the week thing the following films all had.
 
I liked the analysis of TUC. That is why it is one of my favorites. I guess for XI it has Spock's culture conflict as something "deep" but, yeah, the primary purpose of this film was to be a generic summer action flick, which doesn't bother me as I was expecting it to be such before seeing it for the first time.
 
TMP - Yeah, actually, there's not much of a message here. But it's my least favourite of all the films anyway. Maybe there's some stuff in Kirk's wanting the Enterprise back, but not much more.

TMP's themes are emotion vs. logic, and faith and religion. V'Ger's quest is a parallel to humans seeking an answer to the meaning of their lives.
 
Sorry to be the elephant in the room, but Trek has never been that profound - all these messages read into the earlier films are pretty simple stuff, hardly challenging or especially clever.

The new film was an action movie to be sure, but the traditional Trek themes of loyalty duty, friendship and heorics are all there. Also we have the traditionally drawn characters of conflicted Spock and cocky Kirk. This is not to mention the fact that in one film the "other" characters got more development in this film than they did in three seasons and ten films before.

The film also touches on issues like what it means to be in the military (George Kirk's death) and had some lovely touches of a future Earth and what it might be like (they still have money and bar fights, but most people seem a lot nicer).

Trek has never been deep or hard sci-fi, and when it has tried (like TMP) it normally has dropped a clanger. It is what it was originally written as - a mixture of Hornblower and wagon train - and nothing more.

The new film was the most "Trek" thing made since the 60s.
 
Sorry to be the elephant in the room, but Trek has never been that profound - all these messages read into the earlier films are pretty simple stuff, hardly challenging or especially clever.

The new film was an action movie to be sure, but the traditional Trek themes of loyalty duty, friendship and heorics are all there. Also we have the traditionally drawn characters of conflicted Spock and cocky Kirk. This is not to mention the fact that in one film the "other" characters got more development in this film than they did in three seasons and ten films before.

The film also touches on issues like what it means to be in the military (George Kirk's death) and had some lovely touches of a future Earth and what it might be like (they still have money and bar fights, but most people seem a lot nicer).

Trek has never been deep or hard sci-fi, and when it has tried (like TMP) it normally has dropped a clanger. It is what it was originally written as - a mixture of Hornblower and wagon train - and nothing more.

The new film was the most "Trek" thing made since the 60s.

Giving the bg indians stuff to do does not translate to development in my book; geez, I think what they did with Scotty was almost as bad as how they messed up the principal characters. It's not STAR TREK at all; it is maybe a primer on how to pimp out a show with values to a core audience that has precious few, but is that a good thing? It just does the SWEET LIBERTY thing of defying authority and blowing stuff up and gratuitously popping bits o' sex in to satisfy the masses, a decade-later ARMAGEDDON without that pic's really good visual effectss and occasional emotional connects.
 
I may be reaching a bit, but I felt that Trek XI dealt with reaching to one's full potential. Not being limited by others' or your own self limitations.
Spock was constantly held back by others in his childhood, and even young adult hood. He took a stand and pushed himself and proved that he could achieve greatness.
Kirk held himself back, but eventually found his real potential in Starfleet. He even refused to be limited by the Kobayashi Maru.
Even Uhura refused to accept her first assignment to the Farragut.
 
TMP - Yeah, actually, there's not much of a message here. But it's my least favourite of all the films anyway. Maybe there's some stuff in Kirk's wanting the Enterprise back, but not much more.
.

I think there's plenty of message here. Its about our individual need to know our place in the universe, and what (and who) we would sacrifice to get there.

There are four main characters here: Kirk, Spock, Decker and V'Ger. Each is longing for purpose, having estranged themselves from the things they love the most- and each eventually finds it: For Kirk it is the Enterprise, for Spock it is Starfleet, for Decker it is being with Iylia, and for V'ger it is re-joining its makers.

I found it very poetic and mature science fiction. One of the best Treks.

However, how would TMP play to a modern audience, brought up on trash like Transformers? It would go down like a lead balloon. The new star trek needed to hit a spot somewhere in between. By and large I think it succeeded.
 
XI shouldn't be compared to the others, not because it doesn't have a message, but because it has no soul.
 
I don't think that it's qualitatively different from the other films. It's an action film and it doesn't have a real message as far as I can see, but the same could be said for First Contact. Personally I like a good action film and I like these characters, so...
 
TMP - Yeah, actually, there's not much of a message here. But it's my least favourite of all the films anyway. Maybe there's some stuff in Kirk's wanting the Enterprise back, but not much more.
.

I think there's plenty of message here. Its about our individual need to know our place in the universe, and what (and who) we would sacrifice to get there.

There are four main characters here: Kirk, Spock, Decker and V'Ger. Each is longing for purpose, having estranged themselves from the things they love the most- and each eventually finds it: For Kirk it is the Enterprise, for Spock it is Starfleet, for Decker it is being with Iylia, and for V'ger it is re-joining its makers.

I found it very poetic and mature science fiction. One of the best Treks.

However, how would TMP play to a modern audience, brought up on trash like Transformers? It would go down like a lead balloon. The new star trek needed to hit a spot somewhere in between. By and large I think it succeeded.

We so agree on TMP.

XI is an origin story (and also a classic bromance), so the focus is on how events shaped young Kirk and Spock, their initial conflicts and how they finally earned each other's respect. We see the key seven characters come together into a working whole. The main theme I discerned in XI is about the principal characters learning to overcome personal demons and conflicts with each other to work together. Although big action plays out on the screen, XI is more about the interior journeys of Kirk/Spock. The elements are now in place for a "big theme" if Abrams and company want to go there in XII.
 
And what does XI have? No, really, what? The Kelvin sequence is moving, but there's not much message behind it. As for the rest, it's a thin plot with more holes and contrivances than the other films put together, and no meaning. Take out the effects, and what is there?

A friend told me that XI had made Star Trek cool, but if being cool costs Star Trek its soul and makes it into just another dumb action flick, then I'd rather it was viewed as something that only middle aged men living in their mother's basements and speak Klingon like.

There is so much truth in these two paragraphs. Yes, the Kelvin scene is a cool one, but otherwise, Trek XI is a generic summer blockbuster that's as meaningful as Transformers 2 or GI Joe.

Not all of the first ten are perfect, I just finished a rant against First Contact in another thread. But at least all of them, First Contact included are Star Trek at the core. XI is a summer blockbuster that just happens to be popular at the moment.

Personally, I can't wait until Trek XII comes out and is the exact same mess as XI, causing an uproar from everyone who liked XI. Just like what happened with Transformers this year.
 
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I'll gladly take Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen over XI any day.

Transformers was a simple action movie and nobody ever claimed it was anything more. XI, however, was claimed to be the needed resurrection of science fiction's greatest franchise. Transformers never tried to offer a message. It was just eye candy and everyone knew that going in. XI, and its producers, tried to elevate it above all that. In the end, however, XI is just another simple action movie and more eye candy.

Therefore, Transformers achieves its goal. It was designed to be nothing more than an enjoyable waste of two and a half hours, and that's what it is. XI fails its goal. It was designed to be an action movie with a message, which is what Star Trek does. It offers no message, it's just eye candy. So, it not only fails to live up to the Star Trek tradition, it does so in a disingenuous way. It pretends to be something it's not.
 
I honestly can't fathom how a human being can claim they got no depth at all from XI. I truly found this one to be one of the most emotional of them all. Proof of this was the people next to me, one of them who hadn't seen a single Trek aside from a bit on TV here and there. She gasped in shock as Vulcan was destroyed and Spock lost his mother, mind you a character she knew nothing about. Still, this movie in just a short while made her char for and root for these characters.

Frankly, anyone who thinks that, say, Nemesis was a better and or smarter movie than XI is a moron IMHO. /discussion
 
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I'll be honest. The first thing that went through my head when I saw Amanda's death and Vulcan's destruction was "How could Abrams do this to Star Trek?"

As for eliciting emotion.... I can show you a video of a dog being run over by a lawnmower and it will cause you to experience an emotion. However, I don't think there would be any deep meaning behind it, except maybe "People can do truly evil things."
 
I'll be honest. The first thing that went through my head when I saw Amanda's death and Vulcan's destruction was "How could Abrams do this to Star Trek?"

:rolleyes: Typical, "herp derp, they changed stuff so I automatically dun like it!" attitude. I mean, heaven forbid people actually die or there actually be unexpected consequences in Trek fiction right?
 
Transformers was a simple action movie and nobody ever claimed it was anything more. XI, however, was claimed to be the needed resurrection of science fiction's greatest franchise.

The new Star Trek never pretended it was anything other than a summer action movie, to wit, it is a summer action movie based on a 60s TV series. One can fairly criticise it for its lack of depth, but not its pretension to depth.

I haven't seen Revenge of the Fallen, but the Star Trek film was, I think, a much, much better action movie than the original Transformers picture in just about every way.

Also: Needed? Who ever parsed the idea that we need Star Trek?
 
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