What has the new series done to ruin Star Trek this time?

[CorporalCaptain]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[fireproof78]

I treat it as a multiverse, and time and again I'm told I'm wrong because of author intent.

And I'm told I'm wrong because visuals matter as much as dialog, so there's no understanding here. Just line drawing.

 

[BillJ]

And I'm told I'm wrong because visuals matter as much as dialog...

Some think they are, some think they aren't. Listen to your heart.

 

[fireproof78]

I love SNW. But I’m in to in to be entertained. I get that some people love the connective tissue and what SNW does might be a step too far. I don’t see that. I don’t care. Canon in my opinion is not that important. I love the characters. I love the stories. I love the boldness it’s managed to bring in 20 episodes. It (and LDS) has brought back an element that is often sorely missing from Trek: Fun. Yes, 100% there are a lot of winks to the audience. Yeah, I can be told I’m hypocritical for liking this and not liking Picard season3. It’s a feeling. And I can’t explain why I like it except to say that I do.

That doesn’t make me less of a Trek fan. It makes me a different Trek fan. And that’s okay.

Agreed, 100%. I'm tired of the tribalism. I was told growing up Trek was for smart people, and Star Wars was for people who like shiny things. Well, it seems to me that Trek is just as much problematic as Star Wars for people who like it.

That’s fair. And my response to you when you suggest that Kurtzman’s era is an alternate universe has always been “Whatever helps you sleep at night.” Truth is: I can see both sides. And I just can’t be bothered to care about that particular argument.

Same here. Definitely see both sides. Definitely don't see the "ruination" of the franchise.

"Space Seed" had lumped the Eugenics Wars with Earth's "last so-called World War" in the 1990s, but then this connection was never brought up again, even in First Contact which had World War III ending some time in the early 2050s although the Eugenics Wars apparently still happened in the '90s. SNW put them back together again, in the mid-21st century.

Yeah. TNG moved them forward and that was apparently a nonissue, until it was.

Definitely ignored TOS though.

And if they did decide to do that, great! Won’t affect my enjoyment of the series at all. Shitty scripts would. But not a decision like that.

Stop reading my mind.

Some think they are, some think they aren't. Listen to your heart.

Yeah, no.

 

[BillJ]

Yeah. TNG moved them forward and that was apparently a nonissue, until it was.

Did they actually move when the wars by name happened, or is this a fan interpretation?

 

[fireproof78]

Did they actually move when the wars by name happened, or is this a fan interpretation?

Fan interpretation though the 90s were said to be the last era of this last world war, yet the 21st century has the conflict in TNG.

 

[BillJ]

...yet the 21st century has the conflict in TNG.

IIRC, and forgive me if I'm old. But they don't identify the "post-atomic horror as World War III. It may represent a more limited conflict that still created massive casualties and damage to our ability to do things like grow food.

If only the US and Russia exchange nukes, is it a world war?

 

[fireproof78]

IIRC, and forgive me if I'm old. But they don't identify the "post-atomic horror as World War III. It may represent a more limited conflict that still created massive casualties and damage to our ability to do things like grow food.

If only the US and Russia exchange nukes, is it a world war?

At this point I will say I'm not sure. I have not gone through all the episodes with the WW3 dialog, which includes Savage Curtain, Encounter at Farpoint, and Past Tense, to name a couple.

Spock calls it a World War, so something happened to involved the world.

Yes, it is fan interpretation on my part that the 90s were the era of the so called last world war, yet we hear about it, and MA cites dates of, 2060s as part of the World War III. So, I think the date is more than a little mobile.

 

[BillJ]

Spock calls it a World War, so something happened to involved the world.

Like Spock with cloaking devices being theoretical, we know Spock can be very wrong about things. So, that really doesn't prove anything one way or the other. Only reason 1992-96 would stick, is because Khan identifies 1996 as the year they fled Earth in TWoK.

 

[Finn]

IIRC I've seen someone suggest the events of TNG's The Neutral Zone implied the timing of the Eugenics War changed, ages ago because those three folks didn't seem to be from an era where the Eugenics War would be happening.

 

[BillJ]

IIRC I've seen someone suggest the events of TNG's The Neutral Zone implied the timing of the Eugenics War changed, ages ago because those three folks didn't seem to be from an era where the Eugenics War would be happening.

The late-20th century is still a pretty wide open point in time, and more advanced than our own 20th century. They could've been put up there before the Eugenics Wars ever started.

 

[Nerys Myk]

IIRC I've seen someone suggest the events of TNG's The Neutral Zone implied the timing of the Eugenics War changed, ages ago because those three folks didn't seem to be from an era where the Eugenics War would be happening.

That's what I call STAR TREK!

 

[fireproof78]

Like Spock with cloaking devices being theoretical, we know Spock can be very wrong about things. So, that really doesn't prove anything one way or the other. Only reason 1992-96 would stick, is because Khan identifies 1996 as the year they fled Earth in TWoK.

And the 200 years of history referenced in Space Seed.

 

[BillJ]

And the 200 years of history referenced in Space Seed.

Vague years count a lot less for me vs. specific dates. The intent of the writer is clear to see, because the writer wrote those specific dates into the script.

 

[fireproof78]

Vague years count a lot less for me vs. specific dates. The intent of the writer is clear to see, because the writer wrote those specific dates into the script.

I mean, Spock calls it the 90s. McCoy agrees, Kirk agrees, Kirk notes that he has 200 years of history of catching up to do.

So, it's not so vague as to not add it all up. I mean, I'm not great at the whole math thing but I think I can verify that.

 

[James Cole]

It's 2024. US independence was declared in 1776. People would likely say "200 years" ago... and the math says 248. Eugenics Wars from TOS would have been circa 270 years. At that point you'd just round down until some 300 year milestone hit if none of the people in your circle are subject matter experts.

As to the 200 years ago reference in "Doctor Bashir I Presume"... much like episode writer Ronald D Moore, the admiral making that quote must have seen the visual log of Khan's captivating dialog and had that stick in his head instead of the historical data points...

 

[Finn]

The late-20th century is still a pretty wide open point in time, and more advanced than our own 20th century. They could've been put up there before the Eugenics Wars ever started.

I know. Just saying I've read something like that years ago- not sure if it was TrekBBS or not.

 

[fireproof78]

It's 2024. US independence was declared in 1776. People would likely say "200 years" ago... and the math says 248. Eugenics Wars from TOS would have been circa 270 years. At that point you'd just round down until some 300 year milestone hit if none of the people in your circle are subject matter experts.

Or, I take Spock at his word and roll with it and anything past that is timeline fuckery.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Vague years count a lot less for me vs. specific dates. The intent of the writer is clear to see, because the writer wrote those specific dates into the script.

I think they were looking at World Wars being cyclical based on WWI and WWII. Khan and his ilk are just stand ins for Fascist and other Authoritarian types.

 

[Kor]

TNG the series didn't give a name to whatever war/conflict led to the "post-atomic horror" of 2079, as seen in Encounter at Farpoint. The movie First Contact placed the end of WWIII at 2053, and then the Phoenix launch happened in 2063. And humans met the Vulcans, ushering in a new era of peace and unity and holding hands and singing Kumbaya. ...except for that minor little "post-atomic horror" hiccup flaring up sixteen years later, with "all United Earth nonsense to be abolished" as Q said.

Kor