What Has Discovery Added To Star Trek Lore?

[XCV330]

the retcon is straining suspension of disbelief.

It is one of the least stretchy bits of lore building I've seen. We can disagree. In fact if anything it is one of the best bits of character development I've seen in Trek. Spock having to overcome that, along with everything else starts to explain a lot about him later.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I myself disclose my hearing problems when I'm called for jury duty. It's the law.

That's hardly the same thing.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Not even remotely.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Nero disagrees, and he has his whole planet and dead family as evidence. If Spock hadn't had to read those coordinates twice, Romulus might have survived.

The fact Spock didn't reveal this disability and let a non-disabled pilot fly the Jellyfish is unconscionable. Maybe these are the consequences about Romulus' destruction we've heard Picard will be getting in his new show (Picard obviously let his pal fly the Jellyfish instead of someone without disabilities).

I really don't understand what Nero has to do with DISCO.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm more upset about the poor writing. I never said Nero had justification to kill anyone, but that he might have a legitimate reason to be mad at Spock for not disclosing this condition. Although to be fair it's possible he did disclose it to the Romulans offscreen.

I myself disclose my hearing problems when I'm called for jury duty. It's the law.

There are situations where things have to be disclosed and that's why the retcon is straining suspension of disbelief.

While I can appreciate your point of view on that, and the passion you share, it doesn't track with known information, either about the world or about Spock.

One, Spock is not a person who discloses anything until it is absolutely necessary. Even if McCoy were to bring it up, Spock would downplay its importance, especially if it no longer impacted the performance of his duties.

Two, in the Federation genetic engineering to one degree or another is illegal. Regardless of personal feelings on the matter, when it comes to continuity, that is part of Trek's history, based around irrational fears of another Eugenics War and Khan. And, given the Augments in Enterprise this is not entirely unfounded.

Finally, though tangentially, I didn't need this episode to be convinced that Nero needed justification to kill anyone. He had justification in his own eyes, and that was sufficient for him, his crew, and myself as an audience member.

 

[Yistaan]

One, Spock is not a person who discloses anything until it is absolutely necessary. Even if McCoy were to bring it up, Spock would downplay its importance, especially if it no longer impacted the performance of his duties.

Two, in the Federation genetic engineering to one degree or another is illegal. Regardless of personal feelings on the matter, when it comes to continuity, that is part of Trek's history, based around irrational fears of another Eugenics War and Khan. And, given the Augments in Enterprise this is not entirely unfounded.

Finally, though tangentially, I didn't need this episode to be convinced that Nero needed justification to kill anyone. He had justification in his own eyes, and that was sufficient for him, his crew, and myself as an audience member.

Again I never said Nero had justification to kill anyone. I'm a little tired of the switching of my words. I said he had a right to blame Spock.

There's a difference between having a legitimate grievance against someone and then killing someone. And just because someone commits a crime doesn't invalidate the grievance. For example, a criminal killing an officer over anger about police misconduct, while a horrific crime that deserves fullest punishment, does not automatically invalidate others' anger about police misconduct who choose to protest peacefully.

Nero being angry about Spock not disclosing a potential liability in saving Romulus falls within this area. His actions are criminal, but his grievances do not automatically become invalidated due to the crimes.

You're right, Federation laws against genetic alterations, even for cures, were ingrained as far back as the 90s' DS9. I did hope that sort of thing would be swept under the rug. As it isn't, and the issue is a personal one for me (Star Trek had always been an ideal of the future for me, and that illusion is shattered if I'm told genetic cures for people like me are banned), I may just exercise my rightful protest through my dollar and cancel my CBS All Access Subscription. After all, if a product is not to my satisfaction there no longer is a need to purchase it.

Hope you guys enjoy the rest of the show.

 

[fireproof78]

Nero being angry about Spock not disclosing a potential liability in saving Romulus falls within this area. His actions are criminal, but his grievances do not automatically become invalidated due to the crimes.

I was not trying to twist your words, so due apologies there. I am (by my observation one of the few) who thinks Nero's motivation makes perfect sense as presented on screen so I think adding more support to that grievance makes even more sense. I completely applaud your application here.

You're right, Federation laws against genetic alterations, even for cures, were ingrained as far back as the 90s' DS9. I did hope that sort of thing would be swept under the rug. As it isn't, and the issue is a personal one for me (Star Trek had always been an ideal of the future for me, and that illusion is shattered if I'm told genetic cures for people like me are banned), I may just exercise my rightful protest through my dollar and cancel my CBS All Access Subscription. After all, if a product is not to my satisfaction there no longer is a need to purchase it.

Eh, it's a mixed bag on the genetics. We see some gene therapy is used onboard Voyager with Tom and B'Elanna's daughter. It might be something that is strictly regulated but such cures may be possible.

I know this will sound odd after coming down as a hardliner on the legal aspects. But, I had time to self-reflect so please bear with me. I think that genetic engineering is a difficult one to navigate, so perhaps the cure aspect is one that may be one of the appropriate sides, while enhancing aptitude, i.e. Bashier's intelligence, would be illegal.

 

[Yistaan]

I know this will sound odd after coming down as a hardliner on the legal aspects. But, I had time to self-reflect so please bear with me. I think that genetic engineering is a difficult one to navigate, so perhaps the cure aspect is one that may be one of the appropriate sides, while enhancing aptitude, i.e. Bashier's intelligence, would be illegal.

After thinking on the DS9 episode again, it does feel as if the ban was more the fact that Bashir was augmented above a normal human--per memory alpha: "His intellect was the most obvious example of this, as he was able to perform complex computations faster than a computer and his recall was almost absolute. This also made him one of a few Humans who could play Tongo on a Ferengi level, and go to the point that he could beat several experienced Ferengi after a few games."

Maybe the Federation would have just let things slide if Bashir had a diagnosed disability and his parents cured him to "baseline" level or as close to that as possible. But to boost him to a speed faster than a computer is way too much and rightfully should be frowned on.

There's also the fact that Spock is such an iconic character that multiple actors are playing him. Quinto and the movie people may now feel pressured to write Spock's disability into their take on the character. I get that that's what comes with working in a franchise, but it feels not thought through.

It would be like asking Harrison Ford to adjust his performance of Indiana Jones if the Young Indy Chronicles showed he really had Asperger's, or something like that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Nero being angry about Spock not disclosing a potential liability in saving Romulus falls within this area. His actions are criminal, but his grievances do not automatically become invalidated due to the crimes.

How does Spock's childhood disability even come into play? Nero was pissed because Spock failed to save Romulas. That's pretty much it. I doubt Nero had access to Spock's medical files. How could he know what childhood problems Spock had or blame Spock's failure on them?
Spock is widely respected as a scientist and officer in the 23rd Century and as diplomat in the 24th Century. What ever difficulties he had in his youth, he overcame them.

 

[Yistaan]

How does Spock's childhood disability even come into play? Nero was pissed because Spock failed to save Romulas. That's pretty much it. I doubt Nero had access to Spock's medical files. How could he know what childhood problems Spock had or blame Spock's failure on them?
Spock is widely respected as a scientist and officer in the 23rd Century and as diplomat in the 24th Century. What ever difficulties he had in his youth, he overcame them.

Well, my take is influenced on the Countdown comic where Nero hacked into the Federation files.

Also, isn't the implication that it's not a childhood disability but something Spock is constantly working through all his adult life? Permanent disabilities aren't things that disappear when you become an adult.

Also, despite people overcoming difficulties, in the public eye they will still use what's in the past against you. People still asked for Obama's grades even long after he proved himself as a Professor, Senator, and as a President. And if that happened in the real world, I can only imagine what a criminal like Nero would do.

 

[fireproof78]

After thinking on the DS9 episode again, it does feel as if the ban was more the fact that Bashir was augmented above a normal human--per memory alpha: "His intellect was the most obvious example of this, as he was able to perform complex computations faster than a computer and his recall was almost absolute. This also made him one of a few Humans who could play Tongo on a Ferengi level, and go to the point that he could beat several experienced Ferengi after a few games."

Maybe the Federation would have just let things slide if Bashir had a diagnosed disability and his parents cured him to "baseline" level or as close to that as possible. But to boost him to a speed faster than a computer is way too much and rightfully should be frowned on.

There's also the fact that Spock is such an iconic character that multiple actors are playing him. Quinto and the movie people may now feel pressured to write Spock's disability into their take on the character. I get that that's what comes with working in a franchise, but it feels not thought through.

It would be like asking Harrison Ford to adjust his performance of Indiana Jones if the Young Indy Chronicles showed he really had Asperger's, or something like that.

While I can see the point, I don't think this disability is enough to warrant such a rewrite of this character. Spock is clearly multi-faceted, capable of growing and changing in many ways, from being bullied, to being more of the physically and intellectually superior on a ship of primarily humans. From fighting against his emotional side, to the point of denial, to embracing it.

I do wonder at the impact, though, and will be curious to see it played out. Given's Spock's highly private nature I imagine he would suffer on cope with it alone.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, my take is influenced on the Countdown comic where Nero hacked into the Federation files.

Also, isn't the implication that it's not a childhood disability but something Spock is constantly working through all his adult life? Permanent disabilities aren't things that disappear when you become an adult.

Yeah, comics aren't canon.
I'm sure Spock might still struggle with it from time to time, but by all indications it hasn't held him back. And it's a bit of leap to conclude that Spock screwed up because of it. I would think such a disability would cause him to be much more careful in his work. Might even account for his propensity for accuracy.

 

[Yistaan]

While I can see the point, I don't think this disability is enough to warrant such a rewrite of this character. Spock is clearly multi-faceted, capable of growing and changing in many ways, from being bullied, to being more of the physically and intellectually superior on a ship of primarily humans. From fighting against his emotional side, to the point of denial, to embracing it.

I do wonder at the impact, though, and will be curious to see it played out. Given's Spock's highly private nature I imagine he would suffer on cope with it alone.

Well it is what it is and it's canon now. Still doesn't mean I have to like it, but I'm not in command.

I do have a higher appreciation for George Lucas now. Despite the criticism of the Star Wars prequels, I never had to squint at younger Anakin, Kenobi, Palpatine, or even Boba Fett and be like "I have no idea how these guys worked through what they did in the prequels to act the way they did in the original trilogy." Despite a few goofy scenes, by the end of Revenge of the Sith the characters fell organically into their OT selves.

I'm going to be squinting at all TOS and movie Spock now, wondering how he's reading those exact numbers without hesitation. It's like how I watch old "Doctor Who" episodes and tell myself "The Master is suffering from a very loud drumming in his head" even though nothing in his performance indicates it.

Yeah, comics aren't canon.
I'm sure Spock might still struggle with it from time to time, but by all indications it hasn't held him back. And it's a bit of leap to conclude that Spock screwed up because of it. I would think such a disability would cause him to be much more careful in his work. Might even account for his propensity for accuracy.

It wouldn't be a big leap for Nero. Even if Spock says his dyslexia didn't slow him down Nero will call out that Spock has no proof it didn't.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, comics aren't canon.
I'm sure Spock might still struggle with it from time to time, but by all indications it hasn't held him back. And it's a bit of leap to conclude that Spock screwed up because of it. I would think such a disability would cause him to be much more careful in his work. Might even account for his propensity for accuracy.

He's also a Vulcan. He embraces technicality.

I do have a higher appreciation for George Lucas now. Despite the criticism of the Star Wars prequels, I never had to squint at younger Anakin, Kenobi, Palpatine, or even Boba Fett and be like "I have no idea how these guys worked through what they did in the prequels to act the way they did in the original trilogy." Despite a few goofy scenes, by the end of Revenge of the Sith the characters fell organically into their OT selves.

I have a great deal of respect for you on that because I was squinting all the way through.

 

[Hythlodeus]

I really don't understand what Nero has to do with DISCO.

Franco Nero played Sergej Kowalski in Il mercenario (The Mercenary) a 1968 Zapata Western film directed by Sergio Corbucci and with soundtrack by Ennio Morricone. Morricone had a DISCO hit in 1978 with Come Maddalena.

 

[DaveyNY]

He wouldn't. McCoy read through Spock's files without permission and gave the medicine to Spock without asking.

Good old fashioned country doctor and all, minus all the ethical restrictions a city doctor would be hung up on.

McCoy's lucky Spock didn't report him.

Except...
Even today, there's no law forbidding a Doctor taking care of a patient to have full access to that patients medical records.
(as a matter of fact it could be quite dangerous for the patient if the Dr. didn't)

In actuality, the laws today are centered around not letting Medical Personnel SHARE a patients records publicly, without the patients permission.

The Medicine aspect of your statement is a bit trickier.
Now-a-days a patient has the express right to be informed of any and all treatments a Doctor wishes to give (and their possible outcomes), but most times patients are either so sick or just so grateful for the attention that the process of explaining the treatment usually goes right over their heads.


I suspect though, that Spock would not qualify as being either of those cases and I also suspect that McCoy would not be quite that casual in his application of said treatment.

 

[DaveyNY]

Subsequent damage to my already genetically weakened hearing means I hear the equivalent of an alarm clock every second of every day of my life, permanently, for which there is no known cure. I hear it as I type this. I even hear it in my dreams when I'm asleep.

I was in tears pleading to doctors to do anything, and they all said there is nothing they could do.

William Shatner also suffers from the condition and says he contemplated suicide. My genetically weak hearing predisposed me to getting it. I don't know how bad he has it relative to me, I was always tempted to ask him at a convention but didn't want to walk up to him and pry into what is his personal health condition.

Don't judge before you even imagine what it's like to live like that for the rest of your life.

I guess I was somewhat lucky that I developed and was diagnosed with Tinnitus as a youngster.
(by the time I was 7 years old my mother realized that I was constantly distracted and that I often was pulling pillows around my head to try and block out the loud hissing and variable tone noise only I could hear)

It sort of became a mind over matter thing for me.
(though I don't think I really realized at that age how I began compensating for it)
I learned on my own how to tune it out and Music became my passionate and almost constant friend.

It's always there, if I stop to think about it it comes to the foreground and can drown out all other sounds, but I spend much of my time during my waking hours (when not communicating verbally with other people or talking out loud to my dogs) whistling or softly humming a song or just having one running in my mind.
Sometimes I get stuck on one song in my head for hours or even a day or two and I have to actually play out loud another. (though that may be part of my ADD)
Anyway, I sympathize.
Having to deal with constantly distracting and at times overwhelming sounds in ones head that nobody else around you can hear is quite disconcerting.

 

[Vger23]

I guess I was somewhat lucky that I developed and was diagnosed with Tinnitus as a youngster.
(by the time I was 7 years old my mother realized that I was constantly distracted and that I often was pulling pillows around my head to try and block out the loud hissing and variable tone noise only I could hear)

It sort of became a mind over matter thing for me.
(though I don't think I really realized at that age how I began compensating for it)
I learned on my own how to tune it out and Music became my passionate and almost constant friend.

It's always there, if I stop to think about it it comes to the foreground and can drown out all other sounds, but I spend much of my time during my waking hours (when not communicating verbally with other people or talking out loud to my dogs) whistling or softly humming a song or just having one running in my mind.
Sometimes I get stuck on one song in my head for hours or even a day or two and I have to actually play out loud another. (though that may be part of my ADD)
Anyway, I sympathize.
Having to deal with constantly distracting and at times overwhelming sounds in ones head that nobody else around you can hear is quite disconcerting.

I too suffer from tinnitus. It just started a few years ago for me though. No hearing loss whatsoever (in fact my hearing is perfect) but the inescapable nature of the affliction can certainly cause anxiety and, in my case, need for isolation at times.

Weird frigging disease.

 

[DaveyNY]

I too suffer from tinnitus. It just started a few years ago for me though. No hearing loss whatsoever (in fact my hearing is perfect) but the inescapable nature of the affliction can certainly cause anxiety and, in my case, need for isolation at times.

Weird frigging disease.

Heh...
When I first started getting in Sci-Fi and Trek in particular, I used to pretend that the sound I was hearing was the Universe, talking just to me.
(I really was a weird little nerd-kid)

 

[Yistaan]

Anyway, I sympathize.
Having to deal with constantly distracting and at times overwhelming sounds in ones head that nobody else around you can hear is quite disconcerting.

Thanks, my permanent tinnitus is quite loud and it's hard to find people who do understand.