What happens to TWOK if TMP keeps the TOS uniforms?

[UssGlenn]

Seeing the Phase II test footage recently made me think about how changing the to the drab uniforms in TMP was a relatively late decision. Lets suppose that the producers aren't ever convinced that everyone will wear pastels in the future, and TMP is made with TOS uniforms. Cut to the making of TWOK. Do the uniforms still change? Is a new design a necessity because of the aging cast? Howerver there is no longer a precedent for changing the uniforms. Are fans up in arms about it because this is the first time it's ever happened?

They wouldn't be the Monster Maroons we know because those were directly influenced by repurposing the TMP grays. I expect they would keep the tri-color scheme. In the real world the fact that most people hated the new TMP uniforms probably helped blunt criticism of the Maroons, which would otherwise be a radical change.

Any thoughts about this alternate trek history?

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I think Meyer would still go for the costume change, as that was one of the few things he able pull off on the budget they were under. IIRC, he said if he had the budget for brand new sets, the Enterprise bridge would have looked more reminiscent of the Nostromo from ALIEN.

 

[Nightowl1701]

There is too a precedent - from the two pilots to TOS proper. Once the audience understood it was set about a decade after TMP (15 years after TOS, remember?) and Meyer wanted a more nautical air to it, they'd be like "Okay, it's the Eighties now, time for a fresh look."

They initially tried dyeing the TWOK uniforms in the tri-color look, IIRC, but red (actually rust, but looked burgundy on film) was the only one that looked good onscreen.

 

[STEPhon IT]

The late decision could've been the idea of the color scheme the late Mr. Wise decided to do which were just as off model as Nick Meyer's colors for TWOK. TMP costume design itself were a wonderful enhancement to TOS designs, IMO a nice nod to Bill Theiss and a natural evolution to the franchise; TMP outfits were very practical and comfortable for a crew's tour of duty for a 5 year mission. I can't say that for TWOK's very uncomfortable all day, all night, very warm wearing, dress uniforms.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Didn’t the cast express discomfort with the TMP uniforms? One of the most odd choices was that the pants were stitched onto the shoes, so you needed someone to assist in defacing them without tearing them off. At least with the TWOK uniforms it’s easier to go to the bathroom.


I’m sure the DS9 uniforms were not convenient to wear if you had to go to the bathroom, especially after eating Taco Bell junk.

“I gotta crap!!!”

 

[Timo]

I think Meyer would still go for the costume change, as that was one of the few things he able pull off on the budget they were under. IIRC, he said if he had the budget for brand new sets, the Enterprise bridge would have looked more reminiscent of the Nostromo from ALIEN.

I sort of think we got the better part of that deal here...

With somebody more intent on following "Robert's Vision!!!!", I guess the aging cast could have been inserted into two-color pieces derived from Rear Admiral Kirk's TMP one. Or jackets could have been added, only of much lighter material, slick and shiny, and with the same type of two-tone highlighting.

The interesting third path would have been to keep the TMP style for Earth scenes, and then have the folks aboard the aging, slowly rusting Enterprise don all sorts of protective clothing and indeed survival gear, dodging low-hanging bundles of cabling and wiping their greasy hands onto their coveralls. And occasionally banging their foreheads, so that the protective helmets would make a loud plastic clang. Any fool can triumph in a brand spanking new starship. True heroes guide a crew of kids to victory aboard a ship held together by constant gamma-welding and the occasional venting of entire decks.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Damian]

I think Meyer would still go for the costume change, as that was one of the few things he able pull off on the budget they were under. IIRC, he said if he had the budget for brand new sets, the Enterprise bridge would have looked more reminiscent of the Nostromo from ALIEN.

He didn't have much of a budget though. Some of the uniforms, in particular the cadet and crew uniforms, were re-used TMP uniforms that were dyed to save money. So I'd imagine at most, if TMP had used Phase II uniforms, then TWOK might, at most, have been repurposed Phase II/TMP uniforms still.

I do have to say I'm glad there were some restraints on Meyer's vision for the ship. As much as I loved TWOK, I'm glad it was the same ship pretty much from TMP (with just some aesthetic and lighting changes). I wouldn't have cared for Meyer's 'vision' being applied to the set design.

But, then, part of the reason Meyer was brought on board in the first place was his ability to do 'more with less.' Being able to make a competent film without spending tons of money. I also usually inferred Meyer's comments to mean if he had created things in the first place. I'm not sure if he would have made wholesale changes after the fact. For both the films he did, TWOK and TUC, he retained the production designers from the previous film in both cases. At the end of the day I think he was more interested in other things like the story and the actual direction of scenes. I think he recognized for some things he was working in a universe that was already created so there were some limitations on how far he could go.

TMP costume design itself were a wonderful enhancement to TOS designs, IMO a nice nod to Bill Theiss and a natural evolution to the franchise; TMP outfits were very practical and comfortable for a crew's tour of duty for a 5 year mission. I can't say that for TWOK's very uncomfortable all day, all night, very warm wearing, dress uniforms.

I noticed the Epsilon 9 station control room also looked like a cross between the original series Enterprise bridge and the refit Enterprise bridge. A bit of a nod to the original set design I thought. But I agree. TWOK uniforms looked more, well, like a uniform. But they looked like they would be very warm. I'm not sure I'd like wearing that turtleneck all day, then a jacket over top of it to boot. I think I read somewhere, maybe in background material or a Star Trek novel, that the uniforms were supposed to be made of some sort of weather resistant fabric, cooling the wearer when it was warm and keeping them warm when it was cold (though I don't imagine that would be much of a problem ).

 

[dupersuper]

IIRC, he said if he had the budget for brand new sets, the Enterprise bridge would have looked more reminiscent of the Nostromo from ALIEN.

...Kinda' glad he didn't.

 

[Lord Garth]

I don't think the TOS Uniforms would've flown in the '80s. The TWOK Uniforms fit 1982 perfectly. It was toward the beginning of the Reagan Era, the Cold War had flared back up, people were leaning more conservative, and Nick Meyer wanted uniforms that looked more nautical to fit the more militaristic mood he was going for. Even if that weren't the case, there still would've been some sort of changes to the uniforms. Look at what happened later with the TNG Uniforms from the first two seasons.

The changes (in general) from the '60s to the '70s to the '80s were pretty drastic.

 

[STEPhon IT]

He didn't have much of a budget though. Some of the uniforms, in particular the cadet and crew uniforms, were re-used TMP uniforms that were dyed to save money. So I'd imagine at most, if TMP had used Phase II uniforms, then TWOK might, at most, have been repurposed Phase II/TMP uniforms still.

I do have to say I'm glad there were some restraints on Meyer's vision for the ship. As much as I loved TWOK, I'm glad it was the same ship pretty much from TMP (with just some aesthetic and lighting changes). I wouldn't have cared for Meyer's 'vision' being applied to the set design.

But, then, part of the reason Meyer was brought on board in the first place was his ability to do 'more with less.' Being able to make a competent film without spending tons of money. I also usually inferred Meyer's comments to mean if he had created things in the first place. I'm not sure if he would have made wholesale changes after the fact. For both the films he did, TWOK and TUC, he retained the production designers from the previous film in both cases. At the end of the day I think he was more interested in other things like the story and the actual direction of scenes. I think he recognized for some things he was working in a universe that was already created so there were some limitations on how far he could go.



I noticed the Epsilon 9 station control room also looked like a cross between the original series Enterprise bridge and the refit Enterprise bridge. A bit of a nod to the original set design I thought. But I agree. TWOK uniforms looked more, well, like a uniform. But they looked like they would be very warm. I'm not sure I'd like wearing that turtleneck all day, then a jacket over top of it to boot. I think I read somewhere, maybe in background material or a Star Trek novel, that the uniforms were supposed to be made of some sort of weather resistant fabric, cooling the wearer when it was warm and keeping them warm when it was cold (though I don't imagine that would be much of a problem ).

Well, the novels had to try to explain that lack of vision by Meyer who was giving a huge nod from Captain Horatio Hownblower; this bullsh*t is what he envisioned and it sucks IMO! I am convinced the only reason why so many fans love those impractical, VERY un-Star Trek outfits was because the movie was such a huge success. There are times during the movie when the lights shift to red, those outfits would create a horrible maroon/red hue on the actors faces. Not a fan of this kind of photography and color palette, it presented a terrible contrast then again it gets a pass because the movie was a popcorn fun picture. Judging how those outfits never seem to fit properly on the actors gave the impression the fittings were rushed, especially with William Shatner one scene I could see more white shirt and other scenes the dress jacket is on his neck line correctly. Non of those issues were present in TMP, they fit and appeared comfortable... to me very militaristic.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Well, the novels had to try to explain that lack of vision by Meyer who was giving a huge nod from Captain Horatio Hownblower; this bullsh*t is what he envisioned and it sucks IMO! I am convinced the only reason why so many fans love those impractical, VERY un-Star Trek outfits was because the movie was such a huge success. There are times during the movie when the lights shift to red, those outfits would create a horrible maroon/red hue on the actors faces. Not a fan of this kind of photography and color palette, it presented a terrible contrast then again it gets a pass because the movie was a popcorn fun picture. Judging how those outfits never seem to fit properly on the actors gave the impression the fittings were rushed, especially with William Shatner one scene I could see more white shirt and other scenes the dress jacket is on his neck line correctly. Non of those issues were present in TMP, they fit and appeared comfortable... to me very militaristic.

As a 7 year old kid, I wanted to have that TWOK uniform. It had nothing to do with the film being successful (to me it was just a movie, I had no clue there was a large fan following for Trek back then). To me it just looked more spiffy and dignified. The belts, the pants with the line going down, that gold Starfleet insignia badge, etc. I would have felt in command wearing such a uniform, whereas the TMP one might have just been something I wore as pajamas. The only ones I liked were Kirk’s admiral uniform and that white tennis shirt.

 

[Damian]

Well, the novels had to try to explain that lack of vision by Meyer who was giving a huge nod from Captain Horatio Hownblower; this bullsh*t is what he envisioned and it sucks IMO! I am convinced the only reason why so many fans love those impractical, VERY un-Star Trek outfits was because the movie was such a huge success. There are times during the movie when the lights shift to red, those outfits would create a horrible maroon/red hue on the actors faces. Not a fan of this kind of photography and color palette, it presented a terrible contrast then again it gets a pass because the movie was a popcorn fun picture. Judging how those outfits never seem to fit properly on the actors gave the impression the fittings were rushed, especially with William Shatner one scene I could see more white shirt and other scenes the dress jacket is on his neck line correctly. Non of those issues were present in TMP, they fit and appeared comfortable... to me very militaristic.

I have mixed feelings about the 'reds.' They do carry a more military bearing and they appear more official and dressier than prior uniforms. But they are unlike any other uniforms Starfleet used previously or since. The closest similarity might be the uniforms from Enterprise, but only because they all have a similar look and color to each other, those are obviously more utilitarian, not so dressy. But the original series uniforms, then the ones used during TNG and beyond looked less militaristic.

Ironic in a way, that in Star Trek history, TWOK-reds appear to have been used the longest in universe. They were used from at least 2278 (based on TNG: "Cause and Effect") through at least the early 2350's (though the turtleneck was dropped at some point).

 

[STEPhon IT]

As a 7 year old kid, I wanted to have that TWOK uniform. It had nothing to do with the film being successful (to me it was just a movie, I had no clue there was a large fan following for Trek back then). To me it just looked more spiffy and dignified. The belts, the pants with the line going down, that gold Starfleet insignia badge, etc. I would have felt in command wearing such a uniform, whereas the TMP one might have just been something I wore as pajamas. The only ones I liked were Kirk’s admiral uniform and that white tennis shirt.

Which was understood, a 7 year old wouldn't have a clue about military practicality for uniforms being worn for an extend tour. Something the makers of Star Trek understood in TOS and TMP where THEY didn't see their hard work as pajamas which Nicholas Meyer coined as a slap in the face on that great work and failed to see his constricted crap would never work in the real world military - it's a dress uniform. I'm fine with you gazing through those rose colored glasses to make what was done before TWOK appear something that it wasn't. In comparison to TOS designs to TMP's was clearly an extension, a natural update, the only issues I saw, again, were the color schemes. It should've honored the colors of Green for command, Blue for science, and Red for engineering.

I have mixed feelings about the 'reds.' They do carry a more military bearing and they appear more official and dressier than prior uniforms. But they are unlike any other uniforms Starfleet used previously or since. The closest similarity might be the uniforms from Enterprise, but only because they all have a similar look and color to each other, those are obviously more utilitarian, not so dressy. But the original series uniforms, then the ones used during TNG and beyond looked less militaristic.

Ironic in a way, that in Star Trek history, TWOK-reds appear to have been used the longest in universe. They were used from at least 2278 (based on TNG: "Cause and Effect") through at least the early 2350's (though the turtleneck was dropped at some point).

Even TOS had a formal, dress attire for ceremonial or court proceedings, and diplomatic affairs but they weren't stupid to think they would wear those things for an extended amount of time going through the daily duties of ship operations on board a vessel.

 

[Timo]

Ah, you clearly don't know the first thing about military uniforms...

Practical field attire

Times change, is all. And it's great savings if your shipboard wear is also perfect for all those California-type planets your landing parties visit! The temperature aboard you can control, the temperature down below, not so much.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[STEPhon IT]

You're trying waaaaay too hard in missing my point.

 

[Timo]

Which is? Meyer could well have taken a look at the deck of a 19th century ironclad and decided on his Starfleet Look there and then. Dunno if he did - but he got it right nevertheless.

"Futuristic spacesuits" would be another approach, and TOS miniskirts are indeed wonderful for spacecraft that would be likely to become awfully hot in action. But that's about the only aspect where TOS touches on that sort of realism, so TMP can't easily be seen as a legitimate evolution despite basically being a good and fine 1970s futuristic spacesuit attempt.

TNG sorta went the TMP way (even if with the wraparound ceremonials deriving from Meyer/19th cent), while DS9/VOY and ENT endorsed the Working Stiffs look with thick coveralls. DSC has now done a full Flash Gordon. But all of this is fine and well, because fashions change. Which is the only attribute of fashion, really.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[STEPhon IT]

TMP can't easily be seen as a legitimate evolution??? TNG sorta went the TMP way??? Did you bother to even read the credits on who was the producer of the film titled: Star Trek: The Motion Picture? OMG!

 

[Timo]

TMP loses everything that was dear to TOS: the boots and the pants and, yes, even the turtlenecks. If anything, TWoK is a step back in the TOS direction there.

Procuders apparently don't do anything for a living, if their task is to guard the sacred heritage. But why should anybody care? The end result speaks for itself.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[STEPhon IT]

Procuders apparently don't do anything for a living, if their task is to guard the sacred heritage. But why should anybody care? The end result speaks for itself.

Timo Saloniemi

Yep! I'II take it for your word. Whatever that word means???

 

[Damian]

honored the colors of Green for command

Wasn't that gold?

I Kid, I kid I think it was you that posted about the command color being green

Honestly I don't think Meyer gave a crap about honoring the original series uniforms so attempting to reconcile the maroons with the original series is probably futile. The only nods are the Enterprise insignia (which are now applied across Starfleet instead of just the Enterprise crew) and the subtle differences in turtleneck colors to indicate divisions (BTW, one thing that bugs me about Discovery is how now the same insignia is used across Starfleet, when previously different ships had different insignias, even Enterprise respected that by having different ship patches, TWOK at least takes place later so you can say, in universe, that they decided to use the same insignia across Starfleet from that point on--which they did on later shows like TNG, DS9, and Voyager).

But Meyer wanted a more old school naval approach. He's made no secret with that. The uniforms were one area he could do that in. But he really wasn't that interested in retaining an original series look to the uniform.

I agree with Steph that they don't seem very, well, 'user' friendly. They look formal and more militaristic. But I couldn't imagine wearing them every day.

Some of the TMP uniforms weren't perfect either. They were more in keeping with the original series. But there were some choices that didn't make sense, like the pants attached to the shoes idea, and I would have preferred black pants with all the uniform shirts, instead of just with the short sleeve shirt. Having the same colored pants as the shirt did have the unfortunate effect of making them look like pajamas. Had they used black trousers with all the uniform variants, they probably would have looked better.

But, that being said, TMP uniforms felt more, well, Star Trekky to me than TWOK era uniforms did (even though, ironically, those uniforms appear to have been used the longest in universe).