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What Happened to the French?

hux

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Data makes some comment about the French language being obscure which offends Picard.

I gather it's generally accepted in Trek that English dominates Earth but why would French be obscure only three centuries from now?

Was France one of the countries that was especially decimated during the Third World War (and this lead to a major decrease in French speakers) or was there a push to create a homogenised language and culture on Earth after the war (because if we're all the same, we won't fight)?
 
That Picard speaks French with a English accent, and speaks English with an English accent, might indicate that English (British version) is the main language in France.
 
It may be that Data was ignorant of the situation, or just using terms which he naively thought were appropriate but which were not in fact true.

(Data isn't perfect, you know. Just because he says something doesn't make it true.)

As for Picard's accent: Meh. Could simply be that he and his family (plus his friend Louis) learned English from the same tutor. Remember, the Picards were somewhat old-school - they didn't even have replicators. So they could have learned English the "old-fashioned way".
 
As you say, hux, I also believe that English eventually dominated the Earth as its primary language. Due to the advent of the universal translator, left all remaining languages and other cultural provincialism generally obsolete.

Either that, or everyone has a U.T., and is speaking a different language, but we as the audience (with our own U.T.) always hears English.

But that does fly in the face of Data's statement you cited about French, so I'm going with the first bit.

The sloppy and inconsistent way in which the Klingon language has been handled in the series and has always bothered me. If everyone had a U.T., either in their comm-badge, how is it that sometimes we all conveniently hear "Qapla'" instead of "Victory"? Never in a million years should someone who speaks English ever hear the word "Qapla'" or hear themselves speak that word to others unless it was specifically programmed into the U.T. as an exception. Managing such a multi-lingual and accepted communal "white list" of foreign words could start getting overly complicated for people, I would think.

The way DS9 handled the U.T. question in "Little Green Men" was fascinating, but presented some additional questions. Such as, even if the humans heard English, the Ferengi were still clearly speaking Ferenginar...or whatever their native language is...so why do we hear English and see their mouths also moving in English? Theoretically, it should look like a poorly-dubbed anime, with lip motions in no way syncing with what is being heard.

Feh...This is where extreme suspension of disbelieve must hold sway. Kind of like, "there is no money in the 23rd/24th century" and "Starfleet isn't military".
 
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English might be dominant on Earth. I guess there is a higher percentage of people who were raised bilingually.
 
That Picard speaks French with a English accent, and speaks English with an English accent, might indicate that English (British version) is the main language in France.

Yeah but why? What would motivate the French to stop speaking French? Like I said; was it forced upon them by circumstance?

It may be that Data was ignorant of the situation, or just using terms which he naively thought were appropriate but which were not in fact true.

(Data isn't perfect, you know. Just because he says something doesn't make it true.)

But isn't it accepted Star Trek canon (hate that word) that French has become a dying language in the Trek future? I thought that was the case. Or did Data use the word "obscure" simply to suggest it wasn't the primary language of Earth?
 
Well considering Mexican people can be accepted as Indian in the 1990's It's not to far off to have French with British accents by the 24th century.
 
^^^ See my post above. It's all about the invention of the U.T.

I don't see how the UT would affect languages on Earth though?

Surely if an Italian is speaking to a German (using the UT) there is no need for any English at all. The UT is a different issue.

My understanding was that English had become the dominant, first language on Earth (presumably before the UT was invented) and other languages had massively declined in use. If that's not the case then I'm confused. So was Picard speaking French all that time on TNG and we just didn't know it?
 
It may be that Data was ignorant of the situation, or just using terms which he naively thought were appropriate but which were not in fact true.

(Data isn't perfect, you know. Just because he says something doesn't make it true.)

But isn't it accepted Star Trek canon (hate that word) that French has become a dying language in the Trek future? I thought that was the case. Or did Data use the word "obscure" simply to suggest it wasn't the primary language of Earth?

The only word we have on that is Data. And I hate to keep ragging on him, but Data's word is not final.

Just because English has become 'Federation Standard', that doesn't mean no other languages are spoken, or that any of them have died out.

As for why we sometimes hear people speaking their native languages even with the UT: Perhaps that device can be intentionally overridden by the user if they want.
 
so why do we hear English and see their mouths also moving in English? Theoretically, it should look like a poorly-dubbed anime, with lip motions in no way syncing with what is being heard.
Depends on how the UT works, if it's a brain implant (or connected in some fashion to the brain) then you would conceptualize mentally what you want to say, and the UT controls what you actually say (lungs, vocal cords, tounge, lips) . You might not even understand what you're saying if you heard it.

There's a scene where Sisko is blessing (as the emissary) a newly wed couple, it's made clear that he was speaking in Bajorian without using a UT. Kira compliments him on his accent. But most of time he's speaking to Bajorians he's likely using a UT.
 
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Perhaps they're not speaking English at all. Maybe they're speaking a 24th century language descended from English; and we are just hearing/seeing English through the UTs in our TVs.

It seems far more likely that English in 300 years will be a bit different than English of today. For example lets start by eliminating useless letters like c, q, and x. And also get rid of alternative spellings like ph for f. Perhaps Enterprise is really spelled "Entrprayz." in the 24th Century.
 
Perhaps they're not speaking English at all. Maybe they're speaking a 24th century language descended from English; and we are just hearing/seeing English through the UTs in our TVs.

You're twisting my melons, man.

There's a Brit sitcom called "Allo Allo" set in France during WW2. The French characters speak English with a bad French accent. There's a couple of English spies but the French characters have to act like they don't understand them even though everyone is speaking English.
 
The way DS9 handled the U.T. question in "Little Green Men" was fascinating, but presented some additional questions. Such as, even if the humans heard English, the Ferengi were still clearly speaking Ferenginar...or whatever their native language is...so why do we hear English and see their mouths also moving in English? Theoretically, it should look like a poorly-dubbed anime, with lip motions in no way syncing with what is being heard.

I seem to recall VOY had episodes where the audio did not match the lip movements when they were communicating ship-to-ship and the image was on the main viewscreen. At least a couple of episodes.
 
Perhaps they're not speaking English at all. Maybe they're speaking a 24th century language descended from English; and we are just hearing/seeing English through the UTs in our TVs.
The old FASA RPG explains it in exactly this way. I vaguely remember them calling the language something like "Galacta" or "Galactic Standard", which also happens to be 99% English.
I don't see how the UT would affect languages on Earth though?
That's a good point. Nobody would need to learn a standard language because, in their perception, everyone was speaking everyone else's native language flawlessly. Don't know - and one more inconsistency on the effects the UT would have on multiple cultures in the same general vicinity. By this logic, you're right, French should still be a dominant language on Earth. It was, after all, the "language of diplomacy" in the modern era, due to its specific and unambiguous use of vocabulary and grammar. It would make more sense if the Federation, being a diplomatically-oriented organization, adapt French as its primary language.

Maybe the E-Con did wipe out most of France during WWIII as CorporalCaptain suggested.

Surely if an Italian is speaking to a German (using the UT) there is no need for any English at all. The UT is a different issue.

My understanding was that English had become the dominant, first language on Earth (presumably before the UT was invented) and other languages had massively declined in use. If that's not the case then I'm confused. So was Picard speaking French all that time on TNG and we just didn't know it?
This would be my bet then, based on this reasoning. Everyone perceives everyone else's speech as their native language. It still doesn't adequately explain the Klingon and Bajoran exceptions (or Romulan with the whole "Jolan-tru" bit in "Reunification").
Depends on how the UT works, if it's a brain implant (or connected in some fashion to the brain) then you would conceptualize mentally what you want to say, and the UT controls what you actually say (lungs, vocal cords, tounge, lips) . You might not even understand what you're saying if you heard it.
I like this reasoning. It almost has an HGTTG Babel Fish aspect to it, where the UT is not just a Google-translate-like device, but imbued with an advanced adaptive AI capable of adjusting brain wave patterns of the owner, allowing them to actually speak the language of the person to whom they are speaking. And how could it so quickly learn a language it's never even heard before with only a few words unless it was in proximity with the other speaker, to the point that it could pick up on brain wave patterns? This treads more deeply into science fantasy than science fiction, but still as good an explanation as any that I could think of.
The way DS9 handled the U.T. question in "Little Green Men" was fascinating, but presented some additional questions. Such as, even if the humans heard English, the Ferengi were still clearly speaking Ferenginar...or whatever their native language is...so why do we hear English and see their mouths also moving in English? Theoretically, it should look like a poorly-dubbed anime, with lip motions in no way syncing with what is being heard.

I seem to recall VOY had episodes where the audio did not match the lip movements when they were communicating ship-to-ship and the image was on the main viewscreen. At least a couple of episodes.
Really? It's quite possible, but I honestly don't recall that. Maybe I saw it, chalked it up to bad editing in post and forgot all about it. :shrug: :lol:
 
That Picard speaks French with a English accent, and speaks English with an English accent, might indicate that English (British version) is the main language in France.

To me it indicates that they chose to cast the character in such a way that he didn't meet his original cultural background anymore, to the point where they just started writing Picard around Patrick Stewart instead rather than trying to get Stewart to act "French". I mean, do French also obsess about tea?
 
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