What do you think the Typhon Pact represents?

[Rojixus]

Having one of the founding members of the Federation secede is a bit more than a mere "setback". A few setbacks make for good storytelling, but how will it be reversed in the end? Will it be reversed in the end? If you reverse the Federation's setbacks too quickly, you'll have the same type of ass-pull/deus ex machina we saw in Best of Both Worlds and the Destiny trilogy.

 

[Christopher]

Why does it need to be reversed? I mean, seriously, aside from "Journey to Babel," "Yesteryear" (kind of), and a couple of fourth-season Enterprise arcs, has there ever been a Trek episode in which the Andorians' membership in the Federation (as opposed to the mere fact of their existence) has been a significant plot point? Do you really imagine it's impossible to tell Star Trek stories in a world where the Andorians aren't UFP members, considering that in maybe 99% of canonical Trek stories, it wouldn't have made any difference if they weren't?

True, they've been far more significant in the novels of recent years, but those same novels have been characterized by a willingness to make meaningful, permanent changes. The point of the Typhon Pact series is not to create some temporary problems and then hit the magic reset button. After Destiny, the reset button has gone up in smoke along with dozens of planets. The landscape of the quadrant has been radically changed, and the post-Destiny fiction is about establishing and exploring the new status quo.

And there was no deus ex machina in Destiny. That's a misuse of the phrase. A deus ex machina is a solution that comes out of nowhere at the last minute, that doesn't arise out of anything in the story itself but is arbitrarily inserted for lack of a more legitimate solution. The resolution of Destiny grows organically out of characters and elements that were central throughout the trilogy, so it is either grossly ignorant or a damn lie to call it a deus ex machina.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

In 'Seize the fire', the gorn were more than willing to commit GENOCIDE against a world inhabited by BILLIONS of sentient beings! You treat it as inconsecuential just because it was not a federation world? Really, Deranged Nasat?

As for the gorn's racism against the mammals - but, of course, it's instinctive, genetically encoded!

Something can be "instinctive" (that is, an involuntary emotional response) without being "genetically encoded."

Yes, indeed. Thank you, Sci. I don't know why talk of involuntary emotional responses (which were clearly played up as significant in the novel) should suggest a portrayal of the Gorn as lacking the capacity to overcome those responses. I wasn't saying the Gorn are incapable of not being "racist", or that their attitude to aliens is instantly excusable in all situations because "that's how they naturally are", I was saying that their problems with the Federation seemed more rooted in what phyla were seen to run it, not with political rivalry, at least for most of the prominant Gorn characters in this particular book. And the original point was that this book was seen as possibly having a different take on UFP-Gorn relations than other novels. That was what I was trying to address.

As for the genocide, I wasn't saying "oh, that didn't matter"; the point was that whatever the Warrior Caste is up to in a distant part of space has little reflection on how the Gorn government relates to the UFP. That was the issue. Even if the entire Hegemony supported such a thing, why would it then follow that they had major hostility to the Federation?

Both points related to the issue of the Gorn government's relationship with the Federation. I dont understand why both were taken and measured against a supposed overarching argument on Gorn morality that I never made. Saying that the Gorn haven't been too hostile to the UFP overall doesn't mean I'm saying the Gorn are cuddly, good-hearted lizards of love who wouldn't hurt a fly. For what's it's worth, my view of the Gorn is this: They're often rather brutal, seemingly concerned more with strength than compassion as a general rule, and have a disturbing tendency towards single-minded fixation on their goals without care for what or who gets trampled on. But there's a lot more to them than that (as there is to any Trek race), and they've also shown great restraint, honour and reason at times, as well as an interesting insistance on matching other's compassion with some of their own. (In fact that's one thing I loved about the Alien Spotlight take on the Gorn: it tied in with The Gorn Crisis by having "strength" and hatred of weakness being integral to the Gorn - in this case, the Gorn remembered the Federation's mercy and aid and so decided the Gorn must show equal compassion or else appear inferior and weak).

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Well, I think part of the reason the Tholians still hold such a grudge against the Federation has to do with their alien psychology. It's been a long time since I read it, but I seem to recall that The Lost Era: The Sundered established that the Tholian Lattice allows Tholians to directly transfer their members and knowledge on to younger Tholians, partially in consequence of a typical Tholian lifespan being much shorter than those of most humanoid species. So, if I'm remembering that correctly, for the Tholians, the events of Star Trek: Vanguard are not a 120-year-distant historical event that happened to their great-great-grandfathers; it's something that they still remember vividly, that still seems fresh in their minds, because the memories are telepathically transferred to each new generation -- meaning each new generation experiences these transgressions as though they're new.

I have wondered if that had something to do with it. It makes sense, and does help explain why they're still so powerfully bitter over it.

 

[flandry84]

And let's not forget,the Federation has defeated(in one waY or another)everything thrown it's way in the last few centuries...and that includes the Borg.

I certainly don't get any "end of days"vibe about the Federation.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Well, I think part of the reason the Tholians still hold such a grudge against the Federation has to do with their alien psychology. It's been a long time since I read it, but I seem to recall that The Lost Era: The Sundered established that the Tholian Lattice allows Tholians to directly transfer their members and knowledge on to younger Tholians, partially in consequence of a typical Tholian lifespan being much shorter than those of most humanoid species. So, if I'm remembering that correctly, for the Tholians, the events of Star Trek: Vanguard are not a 120-year-distant historical event that happened to their great-great-grandfathers; it's something that they still remember vividly, that still seems fresh in their minds, because the memories are telepathically transferred to each new generation -- meaning each new generation experiences these transgressions as though they're new.

I have wondered if that had something to do with it. It makes sense, and does help explain why they're still so powerfully bitter over it.

This makes sense as an explanation, actually, at least one explaining why Tholian xenophobia seems to be pitched to such an extreme level against the Federation. The memories would still be vivid, especially the memories of their species' collective mental violation. No matter that it was accidental, it would still be a huge issue.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Me? I think that the Typhon Pact is the BRICS, a combination of rising and established powers that now have the strength to challenge the largest and most advanced power.

Hmm, that's a very interesting analogy. Maybe the Typhon Pact is kind of a cross between BRICS and the Warsaw Pact.

The standard mapping ing of Cold War geopolitics onto Star Trek astropolitics has the Federation as the United States/West, the Klingons as the Soviet Union, and the Romulans as the Chinese.

China OTL is certainly a rising power. Having their Star Trek proxy ally with a mixture of other powers as potentially the dominant member, a few of these powers relatively friendly to the Federation and others with histories of hostility towards the Federation, does hold.

The Warsaw Pact doesn't strike me as a useful parallel to the Typhon Pact, actually. The Warsaw Pact was founded a decade after the Soviet occupation of central and eastern Europe, and served to legitimate and streamline Soviet hegemony over its satellite states--the Pact's Supreme Commander was automatically a deputy chief of the Soviet general staff, for instance. The Soviet Union was overwhelmingly the dominant member state of the Warsaw Pact, with a population eight times that of Poland (second country in the Pact by population) and a much larger economy than any of the other Pact states, even the most modern ones like East Germany and Czechoslovakia

The Romulans are potentially a dominant power within the Pact--hence the Tzenkethi desire to have non-militaristic leaders in Ki Baratan, hence the Breen desire to not let the Romulans monopolize slipstream drive--but they're nowhere close to Soviet levels of dominance. The Kinshaya might be the weakest of the powers, having recently lost their homeworld to war with the Klingons, being forced to curtail their military adventures, and seeing Breen troopers on the streets, but even they seem to be a sovereign power at least fictively equal with the RSE.

By and large, the Typhon Pact seems to be an alliance of relative equals, states of comparable power and sophistication which have entered into a mutual alliance to prevent the potential galactic hegemon that is the Federation from being overwhelmingly dominant. The only our-universe comparison I can think of is the European Union, created at least in part to prevent American domination of Europe; the only in-universe comparison is actually the Federation.

All this makes the Pact so much more interesting to me.

 

[rfmcdpei]

While I would contend that there is nothing wrong with wanting to peacefully persuade other cultures to embrace democratic values and join the Federation -- I rather wish there were a state in the real world whose goal was to do the same thing to join the world into a sort of United Earth -- I can easily see how it could make other cultures feel threatened.

I am familiar with some Americans who don't easily get why Canadians--say--find it offensive that they'd like our country to get annexed into the Union.

A better comparison with the Federation might be the European Union, a multinational organization that lacks any clear hegemon. Even there, questions of boundaries and spheres of influence can complicate European relations with the European near abroad.

I think it's important to remember that the Tholians were not responsible for Andor's decision to secede from the Federation. They were responsible for revealing that the 23rd-Century Federation government decided to conceal information about the Shedai meta-genome, which could have helped the Andorians in their reproductive crisis. It was the pre-existing tensions within Andorian society over this reproductive crisis, intersecting with tensions over cultural change occurring as a result of Federation Membership and an unwillingness to accept that subsequent Federation administrations were as much in the dark about what had been held classified by the 23rd Century UFP as the Andorians, which led to Andor's very narrowly-approved secession.

What you said.

I've not read Seize the Fire, but other posters have consistently said that that was the work of one Gorn faction, not the work of the Gorn government, and certainly not the work of the whole Gorn society. Were these posters mis-reading the novel, or are you just inclined to deny the existence of factionalism?

The willingness to use the ancient terraforming satellite to annihilate the native civilization of Hranrar was triggered by the military caste's desire for a new homeworld, but it was supported by the other castes. As one of the scientific caste Gorn told his horrified comrade, the military caste had to have learned of a suitable world's existence somewhere.

From the Gorn perspective, I'd guess that the destruction of Hranrar's native civilization was a "least bad" outcome from the Gorn's perspective. Better that a species confined to its own planet was annihilated than that the caste responsible for the defense of the Gorn Hegemony lead Gorn civilization to its extinction. The conclusion did seem to hint that the Gorn would be willing to explore other alternatives, including a limited genetic engineering of the weapon caste to adapt to Hranrar in its native state.

Note that Gorn relations with Hranrar do not speak directly to Gorn relations with the Federation. Hranrar was a planet unaffiliated with the Federation, completely out of contact with the galaxy and not very well known at all even in the Federation. There's no contradiction necessary between the Gorn being willing to commit genocide on Hranrar--not genocide for genocide's sake, mind--and the Gorn wanting pleasant relations with the Federation.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Having one of the founding members of the Federation secede is a bit more than a mere "setback".

It's certainly a major blow to Federation prestige. How much of a blow is it in actual power, though?

The novels and graphic novels and the rest--reinforced by the very minimal presence of the Andorians in televised Star Trek after the 22nd century--portray the Andorians as a species that has become increasingly marginal to the functioning of the Federation.

The relative prominence enjoyed by the Andorian Empire in 22nd century astropolitics has substantially faded, as new civilizations are brought into the Federation's fold and new colonial communities created all over the place while the total Andorian population shrank significantly and the Andorians gradually retreat from interactions with the wider galaxy.

Let's say that Quebec seceded from Canada to become an independent state. Would the rest of Canada be doomed to marginality? It would still have one of the largest economies in the developed world with a population nearing thirty million people and at least polite relationships with most of the major world powers. Canada would only be doomed in the case of Quebec secession if Canadians decided to make it doomed. By all appearances, Andor was rather less important to the late 24th century Federation than Quebec to early 21st century Canada.

It will be interesting to see how Andor interacts with the Typhon Pact. Some notes about future stories I've seen suggest that Andor is going to affiliate with the Typhon Pact. Hmm: a blue-skinned ice-moon Cuba? ;-)

 

[Rojixus]

Regardless of their actual importance, the secession of the Andorians was a symbolic blow and sets an ominous precedent for the future. If a founding member of the Federation decided to secede, where does it end? It wouldn't have mattered if it were the Bolians or Grazerites seceding, the Andorians mattered only because they were a founding member. It only takes one well-placed blow to a building's foundation to send it tumbling down.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Regardless of their actual importance, the secession of the Andorians was a symbolic blow and sets an ominous precedent for the future.

So far as I know, the Federation has never forced worlds to remain. Turkana IV was allowed to secede and go all post-apocalyptic, after all, and if something like Spock's World happened you even had a contested referendum on secession on Vulcan.

It wouldn't have mattered if it were the Bolians or Grazerites seceding[.]

Is that actually the case? For all we know, the Bolians or the Grazerites may well have larger populations, economies, militaries, and overall influence than the Andorians by the late 24th century. Andorian secession might be a symbolic bloc; Bolian secession could be crippling.

It only takes one well-placed blow to a building's foundation to send it tumbling down.

Is that actually the case for well-constructed buildings?

 

[rfmcdpei]

Regardless of their actual importance, the secession of the Andorians was a symbolic blow and sets an ominous precedent for the future.

So far as I know, the Federation has never forced worlds to remain. Turkana IV was allowed to secede and go all post-apocalyptic, after all, and if something like Spock's World happened you even had a contested reference on secession on Vulcan.

It wouldn't have mattered if it were the Bolians or Grazerites seceding[.]

Is that actually the case? For all we know, the Bolians or the Grazerites may well have larger populations, economies, militaries, and overall influence than the Andorians by the late 24th century. Andorian secession might be a symbolic blow; Bolian secession could be crippling.

It only takes one well-placed blow to a building's foundation to send it tumbling down.

Is that actually the case for well-constructed buildings?

 

[Rojixus]

Clearly the Federation wasn't that well constructed otherwise the Andorians would not have left in the first place. I was not aware Turkana IV was even a Federation member, but it wouldn't have mattered either way. With a specter like the Typhon Pact hanging around everything the Federation does, it's all about saving face and symbolic victories as opposed to military victories. One slip up on the Federation's part could reap dividends for the Typhon Pact and untold damage for the Federation.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The idea that a founding world leaving might undermine the Federation's cohesion, or make it easier for other worlds to lose faith and pull out, is certainly the concern, I think, and if I recall that's at least implicitly why President Bacco was so frantic about the decision. Holding onto Andor does seem to have been viewed as more important than keeping a non-founding world in the fold, so there must still exist some sense that the union of the original five members is the foundation of the Federation. Symbolically, as you say, if nothing else. How much weight and significance that idea truly has within the Federation is an interesting question; as rfmcdpei points out, the UFP has grown extensively over the last two centuries and Andor's actual participation and practical importance had been greatly reduced by the 24th century. Then again, as Sci mentioned upthread, the Federation's own politics doesn't appear to have caught up - the founders still hold permanant seats on the Security Council, for one thing (as an aside, I wonder what happens there with Andor gone. Will another member - Rigel, say - be promoted to join the remaining four or will it now be four permanant positions?). So I think the argument that Andor leaving sets a dangerous precedent is a valid one, and is being treated as such in-universe.

However, I don't think we should assume that Andor's leaving is necessarily as major a blow as might be assumed - again, both in-universe and out-. Indeed, if the Federation is so unstable that Andor's leaving threatens to undermine it to any serious degree than we might question what the point of the Federation was in the first place. Why should 154 civilizations linked by trade agreements, mutual defence and cultural exchange lose sight of what their organization is about just because one of the older members, who's been having problems for some time anyway, decides to withdraw? And why should we as readers lose faith just because it leaves? Are we saying that the Federation is only a worthwhile protagonist nation if it never loses members? Even if there were only 2 planets left, if they were keeping the ideas and outlooks of the UFP alive, surely it would be worth it?

The chapter in Paths of Disharmony where Andor made its decision known ended with President Bacco's newly reaffirmed commitment to holding the Federation together, about there being "much work to do" and that she'd "start now". So, again, the concern that Andor's withdrawal might be a dangerous blow is addressed, but what we're getting out of it is the reaffirmation of characters' commitment to overcoming that blow. Which is just like how Losing the Peace had member worlds officially reaffirming the Articles of Federation after the initial post-Destiny squabbles.

So I do agree that losing Andor is a blow, but ultimately the goal is not to let it concern you in the long run and focus on what you have left - and that goes for Bacco and co in-story as well as for us readers.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

There's no contradiction necessary between the Gorn being willing to commit genocide on Hranrar--not genocide for genocide's sake, mind--and the Gorn wanting pleasant relations with the Federation.

No, but the way the Gorn feel about Cestus III and how the perceive the Federation as getting the planet implies that the Gorn aren't exactly seeing the Federation as a friend.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'll tell you how that concept got started: Andoria's secession from the Federation.

Not so sure of that. Some people were wringing their hands about the supposed-inevitability of the Typhon Pact being a harbinger for more galactic war, and the fall of the UFP long before the fourth TP novel came along.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Clearly the Federation wasn't that well constructed otherwise the Andorians would not have left in the first place.

After two centuries of membership?

If it hadn't been for the highly contingent combination of the discovery of the hidden potential of Shedai technology coming so soon after the devastation of Andor and at least one of its major colonies by the Borg, there wouldn't have been the vote in favour of secession. If Andor had been devastated but the Shedai technology remained unknown, Andor would have stayed with the Federation that was helping it rebuild; if Andor hadn't been devastated but the Shedai technology had turned up, the Andorians would have been angry but they wouldn'[t have felt the same existential threat. The Federation--and, I'd argue, the Andorians--were unlucky that Andor's devastation and the Shedai revelation occurred as closely in time as they did.

Moreover, the existence or even the success of separatist movements in a large federation doesn't mean that the federation is a failure. This is especially the case when separatism succeeds in >1% of the component units.

I was not aware Turkana IV was even a Federation member, but it wouldn't have mattered either way. With a specter like the Typhon Pact hanging around everything the Federation does, it's all about saving face and symbolic victories as opposed to military victories.

True. It's also about actual realities. A good case can be made that, by the time Andor seceded, Andor and the Andorian species were much less significant than they were even a century ago.

How much weight and significance that idea truly has within the Federation is an interesting question; as rfmcdpei points out, the UFP has grown extensively over the last two centuries and Andor's actual participation and practical importance had been greatly reduced by the 24th century. Then again, as Sci mentioned upthread, the Federation's own politics doesn't appear to have caught up - the founders still hold permanant seats on the Security Council, for one thing (as an aside, I wonder what happens there with Andor gone. Will another member - Rigel, say - be promoted to join the remaining four or will it now be four permanant positions?). So I think the argument that Andor leaving sets a dangerous precedent is a valid one, and is being treated as such in-universe.

Oh, constitutional reform!

However, I don't think we should assume that Andor's leaving is necessarily as major a blow as might be assumed - again, both in-universe and out-. Indeed, if the Federation is so unstable that Andor's leaving threatens to undermine it to any serious degree than we might question what the point of the Federation was in the first place.

Never mind the ability of the Federation to succeed at what it did for more than two centuries. Generalizing from a single point is a bad idea.

 

[Rojixus]

The United States has lasted as long as the Federation and we haven't lost a single state yet. (There was this rebellion back in the 19th century but we took care of that one.) What does that say about the UFP?

 

[Therin of Andor]

The United States has lasted as long as the Federation and we haven't lost a single state yet. (There was this rebellion back in the 19th century but we took care of that one.) What does that say about the UFP?

So the remaining UFP should declare war on Andor to force them back?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The United States has lasted as long as the Federation and we haven't lost a single state yet. (There was this rebellion back in the 19th century but we took care of that one.) What does that say about the UFP?

That it's capable of letting its member states leave if and when they want, no matter whether it thinks it's a good idea or not, and manages not to fall into civil war over the issue?

The "rebellion" you mention (interesting choice of words) refers I assume to what I've always known as the American Civil War, and if I remember correctly 11 states did indeed secede. The fact that they later reintegrated doesn't undo that.