I think the comparison to the BRICS is quite accurate, because the Typhon Pact really doesn't represent any particular ideology or goal other than helping its members assert their power without becoming subsumed into the Federation. It's a reaction against the Federation's unstated goal of wanting to peacefully persuade every culture it encounters to embrace its democratic values and join in its union of worlds. While I would contend that there is nothing
wrong with wanting to peacefully persuade other cultures to embrace democratic values and join the Federation -- I rather wish there were a state in the real world whose goal was to do the same thing to join the world into a sort of United Earth -- I can easily see how it could make other cultures feel threatened.
And I think the big thing that the authors of the
Typhon Pact novels have done well, which the people who think the Pact is just evil and that a war is inevitable have overlooked, is that they've depicted the factionalism that marks the Typhon Pact's members and the Pact itself. Most of the Pact cultures have now been depicted as having multiple factions vying for internal influence (the Breen government and commercial interests vs. the dissident movement; the Kinshaya regime vs. the reformists; the Romulan moderates vs. the nationalists vs. the Unificationists vs. the Tal Shiar; the Gorn warrior caste vs. the political caste).
The two which have not been depicted as having relevant internal conflicts, the Tzenkethi and the Tholians, have themselves been depicted as either vying for influence within the Pact with other Pact cultures (the Tzenkethi working to assassinate Romulan nationalists so that Romulus won't seek to dominate the other Pact members) or as literally having to be held back by other Pact members (the Tholians).
So I think it's clear that the Typhon Pact is, in essence, still a very disunified entity that cannot accurately be stated to have its "own" agenda. It is at present a platform which its members are using to vie for power with the outside galaxy and amongst themselves. Its final form is yet uncertain.
Okay, the Tholians are undoubtedly hostile - they and the Breen have been portrayed as the voice of aggression in the Pact, so there's more going on with them than just posturing - but I don't think that making ominous comments about arms and power necessarily mean they intend a full-out attack.
Or that the other Pact members would let them. We've already seen an instance, in
A Singular Destiny, of the Pact putting a halt to unilateral military action by one of its members.
And while the Tholians are the clearest villains of the piece at present, the Vanguard series does help us understand their hostility, as warped as their perception is. The Federation did awaken their mortal enemy/ancient oppressors, as a consequence of its eagerness to unlock the secrets of the Taurus Reach. The Federation was after power and knowledge and the Tholians wound up getting psychic seizures from it.
That's true, but I don't think it's rational to hold a grudge for that long. Sometimes people can have a legitimate reason to feel wronged yet still react in an unhealthy and disproportionate way.
Well, I think part of the reason the Tholians still hold such a grudge against the Federation has to do with their alien psychology. It's been a long time since I read it, but I seem to recall that
The Lost Era: The Sundered established that the Tholian Lattice allows Tholians to directly transfer their members and knowledge on to younger Tholians, partially in consequence of a typical Tholian lifespan being much shorter than those of most humanoid species. So, if I'm remembering that correctly, for the Tholians, the events of
Star Trek: Vanguard are not a 120-year-distant historical event that happened to their great-great-grandfathers; it's something that they still remember vividly, that still seems fresh in their minds, because the memories are telepathically transferred to each new generation -- meaning each new generation experiences these transgressions as though they're new.
Andor was just the continuation of that petty game - the Tholians are showing that they can meddle and the Federation will get sand kicked in its face and there's nothing the Federation can do. "The wheel turns, does it not?!" It's definitely hostile and blatantly aggressive, but it doesn't necessarily mean the Tholians want actual war.
Sure. Why would they need to go to war when they can get such potent results far more economically with political manipulation?
And of course, I think it's important to remember that the Tholians were
not responsible for Andor's decision to secede from the Federation. They were responsible for revealing that the 23rd-Century Federation government decided to conceal information about the Shedai meta-genome, which could have helped the Andorians in their reproductive crisis. It was the pre-existing tensions within Andorian society over this reproductive crisis, intersecting with tensions over cultural change occurring as a result of Federation Membership and an unwillingness to accept that subsequent Federation administrations were as much in the dark about what had been held classified by the 23rd Century UFP as the Andorians, which led to Andor's very narrowly-approved secession.
Yes beautiful if u assume humans are no longer racist in the trek verse
This is one of the fundamental creative conceits of the
Star Trek franchise: That humanity has abandoned racism and prejudice, and has embraced all of its own species and all of the galaxy's other species as its equals. If you can't accept this premise, then
Star Trek is not for you.
Now of course Earth Humans will look down on Colony Humans
You seem to misunderstand something. Worlds like Deneva and Alpha Centauri and Cestus, even if they started as Earth colonies, are not colonies anymore. They are, rather, fully equal Federation Members, in the same way that, say, Ohio is a state in the Union fully equal with Virginia. They're not colonies anymore.
Now of course Earth Humans will look down on Colony Humans but when push comes to shove most in their subconscious at the very least will put Humans above Aliens.
I mean, if you assume that the Humans of the Trek Universe are as beholden to the petty impulse to engage in pointless power competitions and are unable to establish a truly egalitarian democracy. But that's anathema to the entire point of
Star Trek; depicting a Federation so divided and undemocratic makes about as much sense as doing a sequel to
Atlas Shrugged featuring John Galt becoming a Marxist. It goes against everything the original work stands for.
Humans also have a clear population advantage if u give every planet a vote by itself that is a clear advantage.
You seem to misunderstand something I said above: Every Federation Member gets
one Federation Councillor. That means they get
one vote. In other words: Every Federation Member has equal representation, irrelevant of their relative population sizes. The Federation Council is not like the U.S. House of Representatives; the Federation Council is like the U.S. Senate.
Yeah Proxies are all fine and dandy but wars are more entertaining.
I really wonder if
Star Trek is the right science fiction franchise for you.
Besides Soviet Union vs America and Friends is a bad analogy. Unless u think its totally great storytelling for the Typhoon Pact to collapse like the Soviet Union leaving the Federation to win without firing a single real shot.
I did not compare it to the Soviet Union vs. the United States. I compared it to the Warsaw Pact vs. the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Of course, even that analogy is imperfect, since no one Typhon Pact member dominates the rest the way the Soviet Union dominated the rest of the Warsaw Pact.
But, yes, I certainly would like to see the eventual resolution of the Typhon Pact/Khitomer Alliance conflict without depicting yet another full-scale war. War, after all, is a
bad thing, and I'm tired of seeing media that glorifies it.
I don't find that satisfying in my Science Fiction. And that would in my book make this whole thing pointless.
I mean, if the idea of peacefully resolving your conflicts and thereby building a better world is pointless to you? Then I'd say
Star Trek isn't for you. Give
Star Wars a try -- their novel line is content to retell the same damn war story ("Evil Empire vs. Heroic Rebels") over and over and over again, which seems to be more to your tastes.
Well Bajor is set to dominate a major trade route. Most probably want to pay the now crippled Cardassians back
No.
1. Bajor is at the edge of Federation space, not its core. It wouldn't have the chance to "dominate" most major trade routes, since most of them don't come close to the Bajor Sector.
2. Bajor has been assisting in Cardassia's rebuilding efforts. When the Bajoran First Minister tried to stymie efforts at a permanent peace treaty and regular diplomatic relations with the Cardassians, the Bajoran Church went over the government's head to establish an alliance with the Cardassian religious movement known as the Oralian Way; later, it was revealed that that First Minister was acting under the influence of an alien that was possessing his body, and a new First Minister who favored peace with the Cardassians took office. Then Bajor joined the Federation. So, no, Bajor is not out for payback against the Cardassians.
As for the ~'Typhon Pact is not aggressive' stance - its supporters are, essentially, apologits
How so?
Don't mind
Edit_XYZ -- he always favors the jingoistic policy and imperial domination by the UFP over the ideal of mutual coexistence and peaceful resolution of conflict. To him, any solution to problems that doesn't involve the Federation using its military to impose its will on others constitutes "defeatism."
About the Gorn:
The bad feelings in Seize the Fire were more instinctive/racial in basis than political, if I'm not misremembering. It was an "ew, mammals!" response that the Gorn characters had to overcome, and while there was distrust of the Federation it wasn't, if I recall, a hostility to the political body so much as a moderate "here be furry things!" horror. And the fact that the Titan was meddling in what to the Warrior Caste was a life-or-death any-means-necessary issue, means I guess they weren't feeling very friendly.
In 'Seize the fire', the gorn were more than willing to commit GENOCIDE against a world inhabited by BILLIONS of sentient beings!
I've not read
Seize the Fire, but other posters have consistently said that that was the work of
one Gorn faction, not the work of the Gorn government, and certainly not the work of the whole Gorn society. Were these posters mis-reading the novel, or are you just inclined to deny the existence of factionalism?
As for the gorn's racism against the mammals - but, of course, it's instinctive, genetically encoded!
? Something can be "instinctive" (that is, an involuntary emotional response) without being "genetically encoded."
This argument has been done to death - the klingons are aggressive because aggressivity is genetically encoded in them; the cardassians are submissive to the state because the proper instinct is in their genes
Who made these arguments? Where?
I'd propose that members of the Warrior Caste desperate to keep their caste alive by any means, and a few workers from the Technologist caste who are ignorant of the wider galaxy, don't really tell us much about the Gorn government's position regarding the UFP. I didn't see the novel as contradicting other sources.
And - now you've gone from apologist arguments to ignoring most of what was established abot the gorn in the only 24th century continuity trek book to deal specifically with the gorn.
Do you really think the author's intent was to depict a fringe section of gorn society?
That seems to have been what he and other posters have been saying, yes. Especially in light of
Christopher's post about several positive interactions between the Gorn and UFP.
