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What do you think the Typhon Pact represents?

The viewers and readers of Star Trek have always been intrigued by the "enemy" powers and wanted to learn more about them, to see their cultures developed beyond simple villainy. That's why there's been such perennial fascination with the Klingons from The Final Reflection through TNG/DS9 through Keith's Gorkon/Klingon Empire books. That's why Diane Duane's Rihannsu series is a perennial favorite. That's why Una McCormack's Cardassian-centric books have so many fans. Part of the tradition of Star Trek is to be intrigued by alien cultures, even hostile ones, and want to see them developed into full, nuanced cultures and portrayed sympathetically. So it shouldn't be that hard to understand that the goal of the Typhon Pact books is to do the same with other cultures that have been underdeveloped in the past.

So true, Christopher! This is why the Pact is so exciting as a novel platform - not as supposed disaster/war 'porn', but as in part a vehicle for the authors' explorative creativity and the readers' own mature exploration.

I would argue that the TP books so far, to greater or lesser extent, have really dynamised alien unknowns - from the Kinshaya to the Breen to the Tzenkethi. More so, after years of poor results the TNG Romulans are made ... successful again. Though 'well' known, that species had become in the TNG-era something dull and grey - barely connected to their more colourful and distinct TOS depictions, including Duane's books, the interesting STVI ambassador and George's own Serpents Among the Ruins. Of course there have been exceptions to that, but really, we live in exciting, explorative and creative times for the Trek IP, thanks to you guys!
 
I think the problem is that you guys seem to be wanting to look at everything as a black/white, good/evil situation and the situations presented in the TP books are much more complex than that. If that's the only way you're able to look at things, then maybe you should go back to watching Superfriends and leave Trek books to those of us who can see beyond those kinds of simple concepts.

Well, generally if people are calling them the "Legion of Doom" they're saying they're an alliance of evil supervillains. I don't think anyone is denying that they're antagonists, we're just trying to explain that the situation isn't as bad as you guys are trying to make it out to be.

Exactly. Star Trek has not historically been about pure, one-dimensional evils any more than it's historically been about war. The Romulan commanders we met in "Balance of Terror" and "The Enterprise Incident" were nuanced, sympathetic figures, and BoT made it clear that not all Romulans wanted war. The Klingons in TOS were generally presented as more overtly villainous, but "Errand of Mercy" showed that Kirk and Kor were essentially two of a kind, and included the Organians' prediction that the Klingons would one day become our allies (as they eventually did), and "Day of the Dove" let us see the Klingons in a more sympathetic light and planted the seeds for future reconciliation.

"Enemy" powers in Trek have routinely been explored and given nuance, and have frequently been shown to have factions that disagreed with the hostile policies of their governments. TNG showed us Romulan dissidents and unificationists, DS9 gave us Cardassian dissidents and made both the Romulans and Cardassians our eventual allies, etc. War has usually been a looming threat that was averted through the protagonists' intelligence, cunning, or kindness, or by convincing more moderate voices on the enemy side to prevail. That is Star Trek's normal way of doing business. The Borg and Dominion were the big exceptions to that rule, but they're both gone now. The Typhon Pact is not meant to be like those exceptions; it's meant to be like the antagonists we've had in the past, the ones that weren't all bad, that had multiple factions and beliefs within their societies, that could usually be persuaded to stand down from war by one means or another. The ones that audiences were invited to feel curiosity and sympathy toward rather than mindless hate and fear.

Of course, that doesn't mean they're not dangerous. There wouldn't be much of a story if they weren't. It just means that the Star Trek way of addressing a threat is to try to understand it and find common ground, rather than just shooting at it a lot.
 
Who's saying anything about good and evil? The Typhon Pact antagonizes the Federation therefore they are the antagonists. Antagonists are meant to be rooted against.

Wasn't it Roddenberry who said that an enemy was someone we had failed to understand yet?
 
I don't know if he said that or not but I do believe this is the same Roddenberry who wanted Troi to have three breasts and was the creative "genius" behind the dreadful man-skirt starfleet uniform.
 
...and was the creative "genius" behind the dreadful man-skirt starfleet uniform.

What's so horrible about wanting a little egalitarianism, or recognizing that future cultures would have different fashion sensibilities than our own? Men throughout history have worn kilts, togas, skirts, and other draped garments. Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar conquered vast empires while wearing armor "skirts" made of pteruges. Just because our tiny, narrow sliver of human culture doesn't consider it fashionable for men to wear draped garments, that doesn't mean it's intrinsically bad.

It's also a complete non sequitur to use those examples to discredit everything the man said. Nobody has good ideas 100 percent of the time, so a few missteps don't invalidate a person's whole lifetime of achievement.
 
I don't know, I think they're serious about this Typhon Pact. It may be with us for some time to come, for good or ill.
 
I don't know, I think they're serious about this Typhon Pact. It may be with us for some time to come, for good or ill.

Like I said, it's supposed to be the new status quo, not a temporary storyline. It's not like we ever stopped telling stories about Klingons or Romulans or even Ferengi, so why would we be expected to put an end to the Typhon Pact? Again, I think some people were so struck by Destiny that they expect it to be the template for everything that follows, rather than the special event that it was.
 
Personally, I like the idea of a multi-facted antagonist like the Typhoon Pact. But there are parts that are....disapointing to say the least. The agressive actions like those in Zero Sum Game and Seize The Fire does kinda end up making the whole thing look like the farcical Legion of Doom. However, I really enjoyed the realpolitik of Rough Beasts of Empire and deeply symbolic blows to federation pride by the Tholians in Paths of Disharmony. With the latter two novels, one has to wonder if the Typhon Pact is secretly run by David Xanatos
 
The agressive actions like those in Zero Sum Game and Seize The Fire does kinda end up making the whole thing look like the farcical Legion of Doom.

But did they? If anything, I think Zero Sum Game did rather the opposite -- the Breen scientist behind the project to develop slipstream came off as the most sympathetic character, someone who sincerely believed he was doing a good thing, and the actions undertaken by Starfleet Intelligence were shown as ethically questionable at best. One thing Star Trek has often acknowledged about aggression and conflict that simpler franchises like Star Wars tend to ignore is that both sides in a conflict can have good intentions or justifiable reasons for their actions. Both sides in ZSG engaged in acts of violence against one another, so it's really not that clear who the good guys are there.

As for STF, it did portray the Gorn warrior caste as highly aggressive, but not so much the other castes of Gorn society.
 
I have no problem with the scientists and their work. Thot Keer is one of the best parts of the novel. No, my problem is with their actions in the opening chapter of the book, the attack on the Mars shipyards. It tainted my perception of the Pact for much of the rest of the book. I don't disagree that the Starfleet character too made morally challenged decisions (like Ezri, of all people, ramming the ship).

As for STF, I think it's the cliched insane Gorn commander is what gives off the strongest Legion vibe
 
Perhaps the Irkan Empire should join the Typhon Pact? :lol: Between their plentiful organs and masterful disguises, they could take the Pact to (appropriately enough given their social structure) new heights. :techman:

A galaxy spanning empire of cupcakes and parkinglot planets? what's not to love? ;)
 
I have no problem with the scientists and their work. Thot Keer is one of the best parts of the novel. No, my problem is with their actions in the opening chapter of the book, the attack on the Mars shipyards. It tainted my perception of the Pact for much of the rest of the book.

Well, the point isn't that the Pact never did anything wrong, just that it has multiple factions within it, some more belligerent than others.
 
'Seize the Fire establishes this to have been the work of a rogue Warrior caste faction'?

Yes.

If your talking about the whole use the terraforming device and frying the people alredy living on the planet that was from the faction backed by the Gorn government as well as being backed by a Typoon Pact fleet.

the rogue group was a bunch of irradiated loonies that were planning to steal the device and set up their own breeding planet.
 
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