I guess that's just the way humans are. Don't ask me why we need to believe. I know it's kindda illogical, but ignoring your feeling, emotions, and desire is more illogical IMO.
What Do You Think Really Happen with Religions in ST?
- Thread starter Paradon
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I guess that's just the way humans are. Don't ask me why we need to believe. I know it's kindda illogical, but ignoring your feeling, emotions, and desire is more illogical IMO.
Maybe we should try to be more. Maybe we could achieve more if we had better reasons to believe anything other than just "it's part of being human" or "I can't think of any other reason that we are here save for a God that I also cant think of a reason why that its here as well".
Don't limit yourself to explanations.
Don't limit yourself to explanations.
The "healthier, longer lifespan" thing has been shown to be connected to the value of COMMUNITY, not religion itself.
For example, if you're a regular churchgoer who goes with family, friends, etc. or is active in the Church, then yes, this contributes positively to health. But if you go by yourself, and remain apart from the church community, the results are the same as if you don't go at all.
In other words, it's not the act of praying that's making one healthier. It's feeling involved in a community. You could get the same effect from spending time with your friends in a bowling league or doing secular volunteer work.
For example, if you're a regular churchgoer who goes with family, friends, etc. or is active in the Church, then yes, this contributes positively to health. But if you go by yourself, and remain apart from the church community, the results are the same as if you don't go at all.
In other words, it's not the act of praying that's making one healthier. It's feeling involved in a community. You could get the same effect from spending time with your friends in a bowling league or doing secular volunteer work.
Yes, and most black people are Republicans.Older people seldom do.I for one do not drink, generally do not cuss, and waited till marriage, while before I became religious I drank, Cussed, and didn't wait.
now that I am older I know I not missing much on the Drinking, Cussing, and waiting.
And the fact that Mormons overwhelmingly tend to be from white upper-middle class families surely has nothing to do with that.That, and people of my faith live 10 years longer on average then those outside my faith, so right there is a measurable improvement in life.
Worldwide, Most mormons are these days spanish or Portuguese speaking and live south of the border.
According to the Muslims, good deeds and obedience to Allah is the pathway to salvation.
Now what?
Partially true. It FAILS to work with all of those faiths for the simple fact that all of those faiths exist and deny the validity of syncretism. That is to say, you cannot be a Jew and a Christian and a Muslim at the same time. Bah'ai is somewhat syncretic (according to a few of its followers) but you would have to reject huge portions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam in order to follow it. And assuming Mormonism can accurately be considered another denomination of Christianity (I for one do not) then it's a four-point spread: You cannot be a Christian and a Jew and a Muslim and a Mormon at the same time.
If you're excluding atheism just because it doesn't offer an afterlife, then only you have a 25% chance of achieving the afterlife of your choice. And this for a concept that has never been demonstrated to be even theoretically true.
Since they also have plenty of sex outside of marriage, this is irrelevant. As I said, atheists get to fornicate without guilt.
So do most Christians. Again, the key is WITHOUT GUILT. Significantly, you're not SUPPOSED to do this on Sunday. Although I suppose like many Christians you just pat yourself on the back and nail that one to Jesus' nuts along with your other transgressions.
So is BBQ pork.
Because it's fun (see above).
I neither recognize nor acknowledge that I need to be “saved” from anything. Therefore, “salvation” is a totally meaningless and irrelevant concept.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
^ Good answer, but sort of irrelevant since nobody asked you in the first place. 
your never looked up the actual numbers i see. In fact, there are almost as many Mormons in Brazil then in Utah.
2006 numbers
Mexico - 1 Million
Asia - 1 Million
South America - 3 million
Central America - 500k
Europe - 500k
Africa - 250k
70% of the church membership is converts. Only 48% live in the United States. So to call it a "Upper middle class white" is not only ignoring the facts, it being stereotypical.
And if Utah was the only place in the United States where one could expect to find large numbers of Mormons, that might mean something.
But we both know this is the church's latest talking point for image purposes, and we also both know that even if I go out of my way to hunt down ten different sources that say otherwise you'll be able to go to your favorite mormon apologist site and find ten sources to counter it. Apologetics is probably one of the more shamelessly orwellian aspects of organized religion.
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Who runs the Mormon church? I imagine much like the Catholic church it isn't the folks in the less developed world despite their having the largest number of members.
I am glad to see that you don't think that there is baptized members in South America. And that is why I can get temple time in the US almost at any time, but there is a waiting list in South America. I see Anti-Mormonism is alive and well.Outside of California and the inter-moutnian west, Mormons are still not common in the US. there is 70,000 in NC for example.
Happy Easter!
The church structure is follows President -> 12 apostles -> the 70's. once you get to the Aposltles, it is by senoriity (the current president was put on the 12 apostles back in 1963 (back when it WAS a Utah church), the 70's are full of Central Americans, Brazilians, and pacific Islanders, and it is almost expected when one of the 12 opens up (when one of the 12 pass away), that it will be a Pacific islander or latin to be apointed, Someone like Marcos Aidukaitis, once appointed it just depends his lifespan if he becomes head of the church or not.
I have a few thopguhts on this matter
Faith for deeply religious people is the most important thing in their life. I doubt that would change in the future. I think peoples' faith would be more important than their duty to Starfleet. How would Starfleet acknowledge this? I don't think they would ask the individuals to keep their faith private. I think the whole religion aspect was handled badly form the very beginning of Star trek.
Most religions teach us that God created the earth and implies that we are the only children of god. So i think it would cast a lot of doubt on peoples' faith to encounters other sentient life forms each with their own religions.
There must have been some compromise where people of all faiths learned to respect each other whilst keeping to their own beliefs and values
Faith for deeply religious people is the most important thing in their life. I doubt that would change in the future. I think peoples' faith would be more important than their duty to Starfleet. How would Starfleet acknowledge this? I don't think they would ask the individuals to keep their faith private. I think the whole religion aspect was handled badly form the very beginning of Star trek.
Most religions teach us that God created the earth and implies that we are the only children of god. So i think it would cast a lot of doubt on peoples' faith to encounters other sentient life forms each with their own religions.
There must have been some compromise where people of all faiths learned to respect each other whilst keeping to their own beliefs and values
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I don't think their religious faith is the most important thing to a lot of actively religious people. I'd be willing to bet that there are plenty of Catholics who've performed abortions, or who are faithful and gay. And what about all the protestants who separated from the Catholic church? I think that most people, regardless whether religious or otherwise tend to search for guidance in religion or reason or what have you, but when pushed, act and believe whatever's in their gut.
People make lots of irrational decisions all the time, and religious people err on the side of professional duty all the time. So I don't think it's quite the Red Banner/Blue Banner bickering that these discussions often fall prey to.
People make lots of irrational decisions all the time, and religious people err on the side of professional duty all the time. So I don't think it's quite the Red Banner/Blue Banner bickering that these discussions often fall prey to.
Oh, I'm sure there are millions of them. That wasn't my point. As I said, it's simply the latest PR effort by the mormon church is to transform its public image from this
Into this.
Easier to recruit new followers if they think there's a place for them, eh? Funny how the Mormon Church rarely INTENTIONALLY draws attention to Glenn Beck's membership... that would be sort of counter-productive.
FYI, one of the reasons so many people are so averse to aggressive proselytization is because both in form and in practice it is way too much like MARKETING. Whatever the missionary thinks he's really doing for his audience's immortal souls, at the end of the day he's really just selling a product, and all of his grandiose claims, imagery and empty promises are hooks to get the audience to buy into his wares. It may surprise you to learn that proselytizers are most offensive to people who DO take spirituality seriously, people who find the very concept of a religion using market-based PR strategies inherently offensive and think that a religious tradition should allow itself to be judged on its own merits by the curious, not use clever tactics to trick the gullible and the weak-minded into joining the church just so they can donate a tithe.
I wonder what the Mormon temple fifteen minutes from my house will say about that? Oh wait, I know exactly what they'll tell me, because I already asked them three years ago: they sent me to speak to their "intake" guy, for all intents and purposes a paid public relations specialist whose job it is to answer those sorts of questions.
When did religion become such a hot commodity that churches had to start opening PR departments? Next thing you know they'll start kicking out stock options and AW HELL, too late.
Hi all, sorry to change the flow here somewhat but (back to the thread)
I think the issue of religion in ST is handled differently depending on how the writers wanted to engage viewers and that meant relating to them whether they were religious, atheists or pagans. Those viewers believing in the spirit realm would empathise with Chakotay, and even Tuvok, despite his logic at-the-expense-of-everything-else culture. There was definitely an effort to undermine the superstitious-ness of the more traditional and simplistic alien religions, brought to a head by ST-V, while giving scientific explanation, purpose and even credibility for various characters’ spiritual beliefs.
In the future, If humanity is to survive to anything like ST reality, religion, as it is traditionally thought of, will have to cease as it is the cause of too much war, bigotry and prevents beneficial progress (say good bye to televangelism, priesthood paedophilia, religious extremism and terrorism). However, it will be replaced with a leaner, fitter spirituality including the search for what makes humans, volcans, etc. sentient beings with attributes of love, hate, desire, etc, a search for the soul and what lies beyond death if anything. For religions where there is not normally a reliance on an omnipotent/omniscient entity (eg Buddhism) this transition shouldn’t be too difficult. For theistic belief systems there will need to be a more critical approach to investigating the claims of the existence of a supernatural being/s that transcend space and time, formally known as God/gods. Without the baggage and blind faith of traditional religions, this can be accomplished through pure science, logic and philosophical inquiry where arrogances of both atheist and theist will be put on trial.
I think once we strip away the peripheral dogma and jargon of traditional theistic religions we will be able to see more clearly the essential issues:
Does an omnipotent/omniscient eternal entity (must exist through all dimensions – I don’t think the Q continuum qualifies but a thorough investigation is warranted) actually exist and if so, has this entity made contact with humanity or other sentient life-forms?
Are there other life-forms that exist that are non-carbon based or based on any of the periodic elements, in another dimension, out of phase with our visual universe (angels and demons, shape-shifting, life-force eating aliens of STNxtGen Time’s Arrow)?
Do people possess something more than the sum of their parts, namely a soul/spirit and therefore continue to exist in some form beyond the mortal grave?
The problem with the above is too many humans subscribe to religion for all the wrong reasons: ignorance, greed, desperation, perversion, etc, etc, etc. We would have to evolve some, but that may be too late for us.
I think the issue of religion in ST is handled differently depending on how the writers wanted to engage viewers and that meant relating to them whether they were religious, atheists or pagans. Those viewers believing in the spirit realm would empathise with Chakotay, and even Tuvok, despite his logic at-the-expense-of-everything-else culture. There was definitely an effort to undermine the superstitious-ness of the more traditional and simplistic alien religions, brought to a head by ST-V, while giving scientific explanation, purpose and even credibility for various characters’ spiritual beliefs.
In the future, If humanity is to survive to anything like ST reality, religion, as it is traditionally thought of, will have to cease as it is the cause of too much war, bigotry and prevents beneficial progress (say good bye to televangelism, priesthood paedophilia, religious extremism and terrorism). However, it will be replaced with a leaner, fitter spirituality including the search for what makes humans, volcans, etc. sentient beings with attributes of love, hate, desire, etc, a search for the soul and what lies beyond death if anything. For religions where there is not normally a reliance on an omnipotent/omniscient entity (eg Buddhism) this transition shouldn’t be too difficult. For theistic belief systems there will need to be a more critical approach to investigating the claims of the existence of a supernatural being/s that transcend space and time, formally known as God/gods. Without the baggage and blind faith of traditional religions, this can be accomplished through pure science, logic and philosophical inquiry where arrogances of both atheist and theist will be put on trial.
I think once we strip away the peripheral dogma and jargon of traditional theistic religions we will be able to see more clearly the essential issues:
Does an omnipotent/omniscient eternal entity (must exist through all dimensions – I don’t think the Q continuum qualifies but a thorough investigation is warranted) actually exist and if so, has this entity made contact with humanity or other sentient life-forms?
Are there other life-forms that exist that are non-carbon based or based on any of the periodic elements, in another dimension, out of phase with our visual universe (angels and demons, shape-shifting, life-force eating aliens of STNxtGen Time’s Arrow)?
Do people possess something more than the sum of their parts, namely a soul/spirit and therefore continue to exist in some form beyond the mortal grave?
The problem with the above is too many humans subscribe to religion for all the wrong reasons: ignorance, greed, desperation, perversion, etc, etc, etc. We would have to evolve some, but that may be too late for us.
At least personally, I would expect it doesn't matter what elements a person was created out of; they would have a soul. I do not see any reason why a character like Data wouldn't have a soul, either. (Though IRL I would be concerned from an ethical standpoint on grounds that the machine might not be able to provide all that an ensouled being needs to feel fulfilled, and if that's the case, who are we to inflict that on any soul?) I believe God is the one who determines that; we ought to act on the assumption that it is possible and show all proper respect, should we identify potential sentient life.
I think that violence and hate on religious grounds have to end. However, I do not see any incompatibility, in my own case, between my beliefs and the notion of alien life or anything else that may be discovered scientifically. I am not disturbed by the idea of expanding knowledge of our universe.
Unfortunately, I believe that violence is at the root of why--in universe--there is such hostility towards Earth religion. I suspect a lot of innocents ended up being punished and mistreated because of the actions of fanatics. At least in my own fanfic, WWIII is a holy war, that can be blamed on a number of factors. And the Post-Atomic Horror is both an extension of the holy war AND involves persecution from nonbelievers. Putting the two together--the whole human race looks bad in my own fanfic. No one is exempt.
I think that violence and hate on religious grounds have to end. However, I do not see any incompatibility, in my own case, between my beliefs and the notion of alien life or anything else that may be discovered scientifically. I am not disturbed by the idea of expanding knowledge of our universe.
Unfortunately, I believe that violence is at the root of why--in universe--there is such hostility towards Earth religion. I suspect a lot of innocents ended up being punished and mistreated because of the actions of fanatics. At least in my own fanfic, WWIII is a holy war, that can be blamed on a number of factors. And the Post-Atomic Horror is both an extension of the holy war AND involves persecution from nonbelievers. Putting the two together--the whole human race looks bad in my own fanfic. No one is exempt.
Well, I guess it's time for me to speak up.
I was LDS (or 'Mormon') for fifteen years. Went directly into atheism, pending further evidence of supernatural spooky creatures; when that evidence presents itself, I'll reconsider.
I don't doubt that Mormons live longer. They don't drink alcohol, tea, or coffee; they don't smoke; and they subvert personal stress by concerning themselves with the afterlife, rather than worrying about making this life a decent one. Of *course* they live longer. Shaolin monks probably outlive their peers, too, along with other monastic cultures.
I could form my own religion based on fictional Vulcan's Kolinahr. No emotions, no heated conflict. All rational vegetarians that don't eat animal fat or smoke cigarettes or guzzle whiskey drinks. Then I could show you statistics that demonstrate that they live longer than most. Of course they do. This isn't anything complicated.
However, it proves nothing as far as supernatural deities are concerned. Just because cutting out drinking and smoking is healthy - something that everyone in this day and age is aware of, despite their religion - doesn't mean that God is real and smiling upon them. It's just basic nutrition/chemistry/etc.
Anyway, to get down to it - as I said, I was a Mormon for many years. 'We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost...' etc. I could quote the entirety of the 'Articles of Faith'. What I learned was that there is a difference between satisfaction and happiness. I was happy believing the church-stories about what I was promised in the afterlife. Who wouldn't be happy believing in an afterlife spent with your family, the people you love, and the creation of your own world? However, after a certain point, I found that I could only be truly satisfied with the truth. Satisfaction, by my definition, is being comforted by the fact that I know something is real. I could believe in any one of a thousand fictions that would make me happy. I could justify any belief, or action that I took, on the basis that it makes me feel 'happy'. In the end, however, it's far more important to me that I recognize a TRUTH, even if it is unhappy, because I will never be satisfied by a happy lie.
Because I believe in providing useful examples, here's one:
You're in a happy relationship with your significant other.
You get along great with her (or him). Your interaction is as close to perfect as it gets. However, for whatever reason, you have the nagging suspicion that she or he is cheating on you. You have no evidence, nothing concrete - just a nagging suspicion. Maybe she/he had a few too 'friendly' dinners with a member of the opposite sex. Maybe she/he spends a remarkable amount of time on the phone with said member of the opposite sex. Something triggers your feelings of discomfort with the situation... but as far as you can tell, it could be entirely in your head. You have no real reason to suspect, just the slightest hunch. This leaves you with a choice.
Do you ignore it? So far as you can tell, your relationship is as positive as it has ever been. You can choose to have faith in your significant other, and tell yourself that it's your own weakness that causes you to suspect your mate.
Or, you can attempt to clear/confirm your suspicion by either confronting your mate - which may fracture the trust between you - or 'spy' and attempt to find evidence to confirm or clear your suspicions.
In the first scenario, in which you choose to cast out your suspicions; you're choosing HAPPINESS. Your relationship is fine, after all, why go looking for trouble? You have FAITH in your partner. This is the easygoing, harmonious tact, but it doesn't provide truth.
In the second scenario, you're risking the HAPPINESS of that relationship, because what you will really be *SATISFIED* with is the TRUTH.
You can have faith and happiness, or you can have truth and satisfaction.
When I left the Mormon church - and all of religion - it was because I decided that I could only be satisfied with the truth about reality. I could never settle for being 'happy' about a 'faith' in reality.
Here's reality - life isn't awesome. It's rarely even 'happy'. There's plenty of pleasure to be had - don't get me wrong - but any belief system that purports that everything is going to be awesome and sunshine and rainbows - if one follows a set of arbitrary rules - is ridiculous. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why I like The Final Frontier so much, against the popular opinion - I like Kirk's declaration that he 'NEEDS HIS PAIN!' - that is, he welcomes a painful, horrible, regrettable, but TRUE truth and rejects a peaceful, happy substitute - and then dares question the Almighty's motives from the perspective of pragmatism.
Please think about it. It was perhaps the greatest epiphany of my life when I realized that satisfaction is far more valuable and useful than happiness.
I'm really not that religious if that's how you wanna put it, but I do hang around a lot of religious people because I guess at this time in my life it is in a kind of turmoil. If you take a closer look, they really aren't that bad. They're people like you and I. They are nothing like how the movies and medias portray them. A lot of them are very intelligent and successful in life.
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