What do you think about the USS Vengeance ? (spoilers, probably)

[Bishop76]

It's another super ship. It's super because the plot needs it to be super and for no other reason. There could have been some really cool stealth features and electronic warfare functions that we could have seen, but it was just basically a big beat stick.

That said, I thought the look of it was cool, but it was every bit as stupid as the Scimitar.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It's another super ship. It's super because the plot needs it to be super and for no other reason.

I don't get that. Surely that's how every feature or ability of every fictional vehicle ever is decided? The Enterprise goes faster-than-light because Star Trek visits other planets every episode.

 

[SalvorHardin]

I don't think I've seen these posted. It's from QMx, replica of the one Marcus had in his office.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

^ To go along with that, I made a collage of all the aircraft, spacecraft, and ships from the History of Flight display in Starfleet HQ in the movie, thanks to the QMx models.

(click to enlarge)


The fact that the Vengeance model was sitting out in plain sight with the other ships leads me to believe either that Section 31 is a lot more open in this universe (although some newer captains like Kirk are not aware of them), or more likely that this was a design that regular Starfleet originally came up with themselves and canceled that Admiral Marcus then appropriated and completed building for Section 31's needs, with all the usual refinements provided by Q... I mean Khan.

 

[R. Star]

What's the significance of the Kelvin among all those other models anyways? I doubt getting blown up by Nero is really considered a milestone in the history of flight.

 

[SalvorHardin]

I hope these models don't cost an arm and a leg when they come out. I want them.

 

[Belz...]

What's the significance of the Kelvin among all those other models anyways? I doubt getting blown up by Nero is really considered a milestone in the history of flight.

Homage, I guess.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

What's the significance of the Kelvin among all those other models anyways? I doubt getting blown up by Nero is really considered a milestone in the history of flight.

Real world reason is that it's named after a relative of Abrams, so that's why you see repeated Kelvin references.

In-universe reason: It seems as if the destruction of the Kelvin was a major catalyst for change in the AltVerse, to say the least.

- Starfleet built a starship construction facility in Riverside(?), Iowa to honor George Kirk's sacrifice, since that's where he was from.

- Even the salt shakers in the Starfleet bar in Iowa are shaped like the Kelvin.

- If ship designs were standard pre-TOS types prior to the Nero incursion, then even the short-lived survival of the Kelvin (presumably some kind of prototype) against a vastly superior foe prompted Starfleet to alter its design philosophy to construct larger, brewgineering equipped starships inspired by the Kelvin, but with saucer interiors inspired by the Apple Store.

- The Kelvin incident is required study at the Academy and the subject of dissertations by prominent captains.

- Starfleet has a Kelvin Memorial Archive which hides a Section 31 base many stories below it.

So, Starfleet must have considered its short survival and sacrifice worthy enough of repeated honors.

 

[Bishop76]

It's another super ship. It's super because the plot needs it to be super and for no other reason.

I don't get that. Surely that's how every feature or ability of every fictional vehicle ever is decided? The Enterprise goes faster-than-light because Star Trek visits other planets every episode.

Vehicles used should be created with their in-universe purpose in mind. I don't have a problem that the Vengeance outgunning the Enterprise but why did it have super warp speed? Why did it have a transporter that could beam through shields? (Though admittedly they forgot that it could beam through shields a few scenes later when Khan needs the torpedoes). The matte-black, angular look of the ship implied stealth. Why didn't they incorporate that idea in a bit? I guess I just feel like they could have made it feel more organically powerful in the narrative without just making it the "big, dumb, better ship".

 

[Bishop76]

What's the significance of the Kelvin among all those other models anyways? I doubt getting blown up by Nero is really considered a milestone in the history of flight.

I'll give the movie credit here - the Kelvin makes perfect sense in Admiral Marcus' office. In a way it would be his reminder of eternal vigilance that kind of drives him to do what he does in this movie (also, I think he was the more interesting, compelling villain in this movie, but I also think Pike should have been the "bad" admiral).

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Vehicles used should be created with their in-universe purpose in mind. I don't have a problem that the Vengeance outgunning the Enterprise but why did it have super warp speed? Why did it have a transporter that could beam through shields? (Though admittedly they forgot that it could beam through shields a few scenes later when Khan needs the torpedoes). The matte-black, angular look of the ship implied stealth. Why didn't they incorporate that idea in a bit? I guess I just feel like they could have made it feel more organically powerful in the narrative without just making it the "big, dumb, better ship".

Super warp speed helps get into and out of trouble spots faster, which is helpful on a warship.

Transporters that can punch through shields can help you board an enemy craft or penetrate a shielded station or ground facility, which is helpful on a warship.

As far as the stealth aspect goes, Marcus didn't seem too concerned with bringing his brand new classified ride to the edge of Klingon space to intercept Kirk, so maybe it was using stealth features then.

It's hard to know what the sensor intercept range on the Enterprise is, but they only seemed to be aware of the Vengeance approaching when it was mere seconds away, so that could indicate some stealth features as well.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

- Even the salt shakers in the Starfleet bar in Iowa are shaped like the Kelvin.

I thought the salt shaker is a design from the Franz Joseph Technical Manual, and not the Kelvin. You can see the antenna on the back of the saucer.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

- Even the salt shakers in the Starfleet bar in Iowa are shaped like the Kelvin.

I thought the salt shaker is a design from the Franz Joseph Technical Manual, and not the Kelvin.

Nope, it's the Kelvin. That's why Kirk studies it so intently after it's broken in the bar brawl. It reminds him of his father's sacrifice and how he's not living up to his potential.



This guy made a model of the salt shaker with a 3d printer:
http://www.therpf.com/f9/star-trek-2009-kelvin-salt-shaker-83611/

 

[WarpFactorZ]

- Even the salt shakers in the Starfleet bar in Iowa are shaped like the Kelvin.

I thought the salt shaker is a design from the Franz Joseph Technical Manual, and not the Kelvin.

Nope, it's the Kelvin. That's why Kirk studies it so intently after it's broken in the bar brawl. It reminds him of his father's sacrifice and how he's not living up to his potential.



This guy made a model of the salt shaker with a 3d printer:
http://www.therpf.com/f9/star-trek-2009-kelvin-salt-shaker-83611/

It's missing its nacelle, then.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Yes, because it was broken in the bar brawl, like I said. If you enlarge the picture, you can see the little metal pin that held the nacelle on.

 

[The Wormhole]

What's the significance of the Kelvin among all those other models anyways? I doubt getting blown up by Nero is really considered a milestone in the history of flight.

Although others have posted some interesting and likely explanations in this thread, I had just assumed in the movie that it wasn't meant to be the Kelvin, just another ship of the same class which Marcus had commanded back when he was a Captain. Although that would contradict the comics which say he took over the previous Enterprise when April faked his death.

 

[saddestmoon]

Re: What do you think about the USS Vengeance ?

I like the USS Vengeance: as has been previously mentioned, I also think it was designed by Section 31 to be awe-inspiringly huge and visually intimidating, creating as much visual impact as possible through it's presence.

If it looked even remotely traditionally starfleet-eque, then it wasn't doing the job it was intended for: instilling overwhelming fear into it's enemies (by it's OTT size, weaponry, speed, etc...).

I don't even think it DIDN'T look "remotely" Starfleet-esque. A departure, sure, but I'm not seeing the hugely not-at-all-Starfleet (and, apparently, "evil") look to this ship that others are.

Yeah - I'd agree with that. It is a departure from NuTrek starfleet vessels, so I think it intended to be similar to the starfleet template (primary saucer, nacelles, engineering hull, etc), but also distinctly unlike anything we've seen previously (in the Abramsverse).

To me, it clearly looks like a battleship / dreadnaught, in style, weapons, appearance, etc - and it's upsized scale lends to it's intimidating appearance (when you compare to the size of the NCC 1701 and her other starfleet counterparts) - and this makes sense to me, based on being influenced (directly or indirectly) by the Narada incursion into the Abramsverse timeline.

I think it does it's job well, and pushes Starfleet design ethos in another, more interesting direction.

Personally speaking, I cant wait to get a HotWheels diecast of the USS Vengeance!

In my mind, if I were a Klingon with knowledge of what starfleet vessels generally looked like (broadly speaking), and I saw the USS Vengeance drop out of warp in front of me, at the very least, I'd be curious and surprised to see it (for a Klingon)!

Okay, now I'm on shaky ground (trying to extropolate on what a Klingon's POV might be...)

 

[RAMA]

I think they accomplished what they set out to do, its similar in shape to Starfleet ships but designed to be a big nasty, brutish war vessel.

http://www.scottchambliss.com/Scott.../Portfolio/Pages/Star_Trek_2_(2013).html#grid

 

[Belz...]

Re: What do you think about the USS Vengeance ?

Personally speaking, I cant wait to get a HotWheels diecast of the USS Vengeance!

I hope there's a way to visualise it on the BluRay like the previous one had for the Enterprise.

 

[saddestmoon]

^^^ Do you mean the limited edition Blu-Ray Enterprise replica model?

http://onceuponageek.com/2009/11/10/star-trek-dvd-and-blu-ray-retail-exclusives/

I have the DVD version model - in fact, I glued the primary saucer together, and it makes quite an awesome starship replica, IMO.

It would be cool to get an Into Darkness USS Vengeance version as well...