What do you consider to be the Prime Timeline?

[Citiprime]

Just for the sake of argument... what would it fundamentally change IF Discovery and Strange New Worlds weren't in the Prime Timeline?

It would still be Star Trek.

They would still use the same elements of the Star Trek universe.

And arguably they wouldn't be tied to having to wedge their action into wondering whether everything fits to be a prequel. It would open things up for them to go in drastically different directions both with the characters and overall story. And they could make their own history.

If the only thing holding them in the Prime Timeline is a producer's PR statement claiming them to be, not the action and events we see on-screen, then that's a pretty weak case for their inclusion.

 

[fireproof78]

Just for the sake of argument... what would it fundamentally change IF Discovery and Strange New Worlds weren't in the Prime Timeline?

You loose the expansion of characters that drew me in to Trek in the first place. Captain Pike is my first favorite Trek character since I was 8 or 9. TOS as an era is my preferred era, and I welcome the expansion of the lore.

To turn this question around, what would be lost if Picard was disconnected from TNG? Still a character piece that explores the psychology of and aging character.

I thought history was supposedly important, but I guess making them distinct is good too.

 

[HotRod]

You loose the expansion of characters that drew me in to Trek in the first place. Captain Pike is my first favorite Trek character since I was 8 or 9. TOS as an era is my preferred era, and I welcome the expansion of the lore.

THIS. This exactly.

Part of the reason I love Strange New Worlds is because it is a prequel to TOS.

 

[Lord Garth]

Interesting. If Discovery had no connection to TOS whatsoever, my opinion of it wouldn't change. I like the show regardless of what it's connected to.

I'm there for Burnham, Tilly, Saru, Stamets, Culber and later on Book, Vance, and Zora. Also both versions of Georgiou, Lorca, and yes Pike (whether he was a pre-existing character or not). Adira in Season 3 was okay, but Adira in Season 4 had "I'm a stand-in for Tilly!" written all over them.

EDITED TO ADD: Have to throw in Kovich too! He's a total badass.

 

[James Cole]

EAS has a great, extensive write up of this very subject, complete with graphs. They also have an in depth explainer for why DISCOVERY / SNW is more than a visual reboot. I buy most of their arguments, with the exception that TNG by establishing WW3 in the mid 21st century also moved the timing of the Eugenics Wars (and that "Farewell" from the end of PICARD season 2 should be intercepted with this in mind... ENT season 4 during the Augment arc has Phlox reference the embryos as being from the 20th century).

But what I find interesting/irritating are the people that will then try to make you believe that even though Goldsman and other connected to the production will explicitly tell you that they're changing things that the people who point this out are crazy to point out it's different. The amount of arguments that border on gaslighting that amounts to saying: no, no, no, it's not different, it's all still the same and all fits even when it doesn't really fit.

Very much so... the emperor is wearing clothes, you just choose not to see them!

I think a more reasonable explanation for what it is Prime Canon is whatever the consensus of fans accept it to be. George Lucas spent God knows how much time and multiple edits trying to prove that Han didn't shoot first. That was TPTB's intention. And fans did NOT accept it because it was a stupid change over a small moment that arguably substantively undermined the character's motivations.

Star Wars fans didn't just blindly accept it as true because George Lucas said so, and neither should Star Trek fans accept things if they think they're bad.

&

The IP owner is the IP owner. But their IP is worthless without the fan's consumption of their product. The IP owner is in charge. But they can also be in charge of a failure. How many studios have run IPs into the ground by deciding to do their own thing while fans grumbled and begged to attempt something different.

And there have been instances where the IP owner, in all their authority, has been responsive to the fan reaction. For example, Beverly Crusher returned in TNG season 3, in part, because fans LOATHED Dr. Pulaski.

Art may very well be a dictatorship, and corporations non-democracies, but they very well do respond to market pressure.

If TOS still sells a lot of merch, and SNW isn't, well...

ENT seasons 3 and 4 and very different from 1 and 2 because of this.

DISCOVERY was drastically retooled each season. The KlingOrcs were abandoned when it came time for SNW. Kurtzman Trek has blinked on multiple occasions. Let alone how you go from PICARD season 1 to season 3!

Some people are also under the VERY false assumption that "You don't consider it all the same timeline!" means "You don't like it!" Nothing could be further from the truth. Discovery is my favorite Trek series and I'll die on that hill. I also like TOS better than SNW, yet I called SNW "Prime Timeline" and not TOS. So please DO NOT read where I put these series as some type of indicator of how much I like them.

I mean, THE ORVILLE is as close to legally being Star Trek that you can get without it being Star Trek, and I like it despite all the "differences".

And arguably they wouldn't be tied to having to wedge their action into wondering whether everything fits to be a prequel. It would open things up for them to go in drastically different directions both with the characters and overall story. And they could make their own history.

I mean let's say SNW's remaining seasons turn out to be super successful. Are they just going to walk away because TOS is a line in the sand they won't cross? No... SNW is the backdoor reboot of TOS.

And this isn't just a canon / continuity debate about multiverses... it is a reboot vs continuation one as well.

 

[Shawnster]

Well, the Federation Starfleet in TNG season 1 hadn't seen a Ferengi either even though the NX-01 was commandeered by them.

Yes. And that is a nit I have with ENT. This time I can't rationalize it with temporal shenanigans

 

[BillJ]

The question of the thread asks individuals to identify what they consider Prime, so naturally there are multiple perspectives. Such variety expresses the concept of audience interpretation of art (of any category) as compared with creator intent—and that’s been true since art was invented. However, despite what postmodernism would argue, authorial intent is not irrelevant (where would the art come from otherwise). The creators make the art and so get to decide their intentions, including any rules they wish to apply (Prime Universe, time travel mechanics, connections to other iterations, etc.). As audience members, we can pick and choose what to accept and what any of it means…to us. We don’t (and NEVER SHOULD) get to decide for anyone other than ourselves. And we especially SHOULD NEVER expect to dictate anything to the creators. They have right to make their art as they wish—taking the audience into account is a choice, NOT an obligation. Audiences are free to like or dislike the end result. They are NOT entitled to be satisfied. Just as the creators are NOT entitled to success.

Ultimately, any individual’s interpretation of Prime, in this case, is fine for the individual. But only the creators get to decide the original intent of their creation.

Problem becomes that people can’t say how they interpret the material without being drowned out by “…but CBS says!!!”

They own the material and can say anything they want, but, unless I work for CBS or merchandising they’re proclamations don’t stop me from enjoying the material in a manner that makes sense to me.

 

[Finn]

Well, the Federation Starfleet in TNG season 1 hadn't seen a Ferengi either even though the NX-01 was commandeered by them.

Also, whose to say that maybe all of the Borg info was classified by either section 31 or Temporal Investigations?

Beyond all of that, the producers of Enterprise used the same excuses as the showrunners of Strange New Worlds as to how it didn't really change the timeline. So if we go with the idea espoused here that because TPTB say it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter given the argument asserted by some.

They weren't speaking for all of Humanity that had ever lived, as well as for all individuals within every UFP member race, their protectorates, etc when they said that in TNG season one. They were speaking for Starfleet, at least officially. Data spoke of rumors. Where do you think those rumors came from?

 

[BillJ]

You loose the expansion of characters that drew me in to Trek in the first place. Captain Pike is my first favorite Trek character since I was 8 or 9. TOS as an era is my preferred era, and I welcome the expansion of the lore.

So, unless someone tells you explicitly that it is Prime, you couldn’t enjoy the show? You couldn’t make that leap on your own?

 

[BillJ]

They weren't speaking for all of Humanity that had ever lived, as well as for all individuals within every UFP member race, their protectorates, etc when they said that in TNG season one. They were speaking for Starfleet, at least officially. Data spoke of rumors. Where do you think those rumors came from?

Rumors also had it that they were cannibals.

That element of “…Farpoint” never made a lick of sense.

 

[fireproof78]

season. The KlingOrcs were abandoned when it came time for SNW. Kurtzman Trek has blinked on multiple occasions. Let alone how you go from PICARD season 1 to season 3!

Does not make any of us in charge. We don't dictate.

These broad sweeping generalizations ignore the fundamental question.

So, unless someone tells you explicitly that it is Prime, you couldn’t enjoy the show? You couldn’t make that leap on your own?

That's...not what I said at all.

 

[Finn]

Rumors also had it that they were cannibals.

That element of “…Farpoint” never made a lick of sense.

So? Maybe they got that rumor from an Xindi-insectoid who would have perceived the Ferengi eating their larvae as "eating people"?

 

[BillJ]

Does not make any of us in charge. We don't dictate.

These broad sweeping generalizations ignore the fundamental question.

Viewers, if this board and Facebook are any indication, didn’t seem to enjoy them and then we started seeing changes. So, while CBS isn’t beholden to fans, they do seem monitor what fans are complaining about.

 

[fireproof78]

Viewers, if this board and Facebook are any indication, didn’t seem to enjoy them and then we started seeing changes. So, while CBS isn’t beholden to fans, they do seem monitor what fans are complaining about.

Reasonable part of business but not the same as being in charge.

Which was my initial point that had since been lost.

 

[BillJ]

So? Maybe they got that rumor from an Xindi-insectoid who would have perceived the Ferengi eating their larvae as "eating people"?

I wasn't talking about overall continuity. I was talking about that particular plot point. By the time you're competing for property with another race, you're fairly likely to know quite a bit about them. If nothing else, from people within the negotiations trying to sway things one way or the other.

 

[BillJ]

These broad sweeping generalizations ignore the fundamental question.

Fundamental question... Who owns Trek? CBS. But, if they aren't in my house or paying my bills, then they aren't dictating to me how I see, consume or talk about the material.

 

[Finn]

I wasn't talking about overall continuity. I was talking about that particular plot point. By the time you're competing for property with another race, you're fairly likely to know quite a bit about them. If nothing else, from people within the negotiations trying to sway things one way or the other.

Oh that, yeah. I think that point occurred to me on my last rewatch.

 

[fireproof78]

Fundamental question... Who owns Trek? CBS. But, if they aren't in my house or paying my bills, then they aren't dictating to me how I see, consume or talk about the material.

I don't see it as a dictation but a respect to authorial intent. To me, that's part of taking in art is recognizing all the constituent parts.

But, whatever floats your boat. A good show usually means I'm not thinking of timelines or other shows while watching it.

 

[JoeZhang]

It's the original timeline until season 3 of TNG where we leaped to a timeline where the Klingons do not join the Federation.

 

[BillJ]

I don't see it as a dictation but a respect to authorial intent. To me, that's part of taking in art is recognizing all the constituent parts.

You can recognize authorial intent and not agree with it. For me, the most important part of the discussion is, what am I reading from the actual contents of the item.

I have no issue with people who watch the shows and go, "yes, I can see how this all fits together", I have an issue with the laziness behind "but, CBS says!!!"

Without the dictates (numerous for some reason) of it being Prime from CBS, I wonder how many people would still feel these shows are "Prime"?

A good show usually means I'm not thinking of timelines or other shows while watching it.

This is the way it should be. Seemingly, though, for a lot of viewers, it feels like where the show is taking place is more important than the quality of the show itself.